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RE: If abortion is murder . . . - 7/1/2013 6:38:29 AM   
Toysinbabeland


Posts: 1693
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From: the other end of Cx's leash
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quote:

ORIGINAL: egern

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

The fail rate for condoms is higher than the pill.


Two percent with perfect use. I strive for perfection.

Still, point made. And yours enhances mine: using one is doing my part. I take precautions against consequences I want to avoid. So should she.

I've never hidden the fact that I don't intend to raise or support children, and that my consent to sex is contingent on her acceptance of that. I take precautions to reduce the risk of STD transmission and unwanted pregnancies, including use of condoms
at minimum. I know the risk (legally imposed, so an added, non-preexisting one) I'm taking in having sex. She knows the risk (biologically inherent) she's taking in having sex, and the conditions of consent on my end. If she draws the "winning" numbers in the lottery, she can keep what I "gave" her if she wants to, or get rid of it if she doesn't. That, too, is clear up front. If she hasn't agreed to it, sex isn't happening.

Though, that's enough about me. I was trying to make a general point, and apparently failing at it.

IWYW,
— Aswad.




In short, you argue that since women have the body that gets pregnant, it is ok for men to have the fun, but not take the consequences if - in spite of precautions - she gets pregnant.

Doesn't sound right to me, especially not these days where in so many places you simply cannot get an abortion.


Actually, it's refreshing that Aswad is so clear. If both agree to engage in a sexual act that could result in pregnancy, regardless of precautions, He abdicates both responsibility and choice. If you don't like his terms, you don't participate. He also gives up the right to the child completely. He's not saying don't have it, he's saying he won't acknowledge it.





(in reply to egern)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: If abortion is murder . . . - 7/1/2013 6:41:00 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

Actually, it's refreshing that Aswad is so clear. If both agree to engage in a sexual act that could result in pregnancy, regardless of precautions, He abdicates both responsibility and choice. If you don't like his terms, you don't participate. He also gives up the right to the child completely. He's not saying don't have it, he's saying he won't acknowledge it.


The flaw in that is that his desire is not what the law here will take into account. He can make all the agreements he wants. The "state" will insist he take care of it because the "state" wont want the burden themselves.



_____________________________

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Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: If abortion is murder . . . - 7/1/2013 6:41:07 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
Laws can pin consequences on a man, too, but then it's also a natural extension that the man should have some say in the matter he is responsible for (e.g. deciding whether or not to have an abortion, as your "also the man's baby" above suggests).


I have a hard time arguing against no taxation without representation.

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: If abortion is murder . . . - 7/1/2013 6:42:21 AM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		The representation is visitation rights.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: If abortion is murder . . . - 7/1/2013 8:59:27 AM   
Phoenixpower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

I ran across a question of pro-lifers the other day: What if your mother had aborted you?



My answer would be that such a choice would have protected me from a shit load of harm encountered in life...so quite frankly, I would seriously be ok with it, if that would have happened (of course in hindsight)...

It also would have given me potentially a chance to come back one day to live another time in a potentially better family...

_____________________________

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The PAST is history, the FUTURE a mystery, NOW is a gift - that's why it's called the PRESENT

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RE: If abortion is murder . . . - 7/1/2013 9:30:12 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

The flaw in that is that his desire is not what the law here will take into account. He can make all the agreements he wants. The "state" will insist he take care of it because the "state" wont want the burden themselves.



It isn't what many would take into account in working out the morality of it all, either. They'll still see the pregnancy as a joint responsibility, regardless of any private agreement between (potential) father and mother. Put another way: the smallest indivisible unit in this case isn't the individual male or individual female, but the couple. Or least, it can be taken that way.



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RE: If abortion is murder . . . - 7/1/2013 1:39:18 PM   
egern


Posts: 537
Joined: 1/11/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower


quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

I ran across a question of pro-lifers the other day: What if your mother had aborted you?



My answer would be that such a choice would have protected me from a shit load of harm encountered in life...so quite frankly, I would seriously be ok with it, if that would have happened (of course in hindsight)...

It also would have given me potentially a chance to come back one day to live another time in a potentially better family...


I agree.
And if I had not been born, I would not have known it and no harm done.

(in reply to Phoenixpower)
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RE: If abortion is murder . . . - 7/1/2013 3:15:58 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

The representation is visitation rights.


'Misery rights', I'd call that.

Every now and then, I look at couples I know who've divorced, with kids involved, and think, 'Well, I've ballsed up a few things in my life, but I've never ballsed up on that one, thank God.'.

An Irish friend of mine has the maxim, 'If in any doubt at all about her desires for a kid that you don't want, go in armoured'. This I hold to.

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Profile   Post #: 88
RE: If abortion is murder . . . - 7/1/2013 3:24:18 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Which is the smart thing to do. If you look at the woman you are about to fuck and ask one simple question....

Do I want this woman in my life for the next 25 years? And answer yourself with... NO.

Then suit up fellas.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: If abortion is murder . . . - 7/1/2013 11:39:14 PM   
Missdressed


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From: UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

The representation is visitation rights.


'Misery rights', I'd call that.

Every now and then, I look at couples I know who've divorced, with kids involved, and think, 'Well, I've ballsed up a few things in my life, but I've never ballsed up on that one, thank God.'.

An Irish friend of mine has the maxim, 'If in any doubt at all about her desires for a kid that you don't want, go in armoured'. This I hold to.



Otherwise known as "Keep it in or keep it covered"

Me and the ex are divorced and we have kids. But. We do a 50/50 split as a starting point, with total flexibility as much as we can from the both of us in that if the girls (boys are 22 and 21 they suit themselves - means they turn up here for food mostly lol) want to,be here or there we try to accommodate that.

If he's working, I take them "extra" nights and vice versa. We don't keep a tally. The important thing is that it works for them, not us - in that they come first, as long as its working for them and they're happy then the rest of it is fly shit.

So far, we appear to be raising happy well adjusted kids, who are achieving in life, so I like to think we are doing ok

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: If abortion is murder . . . - 7/2/2013 4:03:01 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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Joined: 8/9/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Another thread brought to mind a question CNN's Bernard Shaw posed to George H.W. Bush in a 1988 presidential debate:

If abortion is murder and we execute murderers, should we execute women who abort?

Not surprisingly, Bush dodged the question, and I've waited ever since for a straight answer from anyone.

So what do you all think? Shall we fry murdering Moms? If not, why not? And, just to spice things up, how 'bout the doctors?



Abortion is murder.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: If abortion is murder . . . - 7/2/2013 4:11:02 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		And until the age of viability, its perfectly legal.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to LookieNoNookie)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: If abortion is murder . . . - 7/2/2013 4:13:59 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Abortion is murder.

So should we punish those who perform or receive abortions the same way we punish other murderers?

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to LookieNoNookie)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: If abortion is murder . . . - 7/2/2013 4:18:35 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline 		FR

Part of what makes this all so thorny, I think, is the biological reality that women experience pregnancy and childbirth while men don't. The decision to carry or abort will affect the woman in intimate and lasting ways that the man can't conceive of.

Barbara Ehrenreich--journalist, scientist, mother of two--puts it far better than I could:

From the point of view of a fetus, pregnancy is no doubt a good deal. But consider it for a moment from the point of view of the pregnant person (if "woman" is too incendiary and feminist a term) and without reference to its potential issue. We are talking baout a nine-month bout of symptoms of varying severity, often includinjg nausea, skin discolorations, extreme bloating and swelling, insomnia, narcolepsy, hair loss, varicoe veins, hemorrhoids, indigestion, and irreversible weight ganin, and culminating in a physiological crisis which is occasionally fatal and almost always excruciatingly painful. If men were equally at risk for this condition--if they knew their bellies might swell as if they were suffering from end-stage cirrhosis, that they would have to go for nearly a year without a stiff drink, a cigarette, or even an aspirin, that they would be subject to fainting spells and unable to fight their way onto commuter trains--then I am certain that pregnancy would be classified as a sexually transmitted disease and abortions would be no more controversial than emergency appendectomies.

Barbara Ehrenreich, "Their Dilemma and Mine" in The Worst Years of Our Lives: Irreverent Notes From a Decade of Greed (HarperPerennial, 1991)


_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: If abortion is murder . . . - 7/2/2013 4:27:27 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline 		My mum always said that if men had babies, there would never be more than 1 child in any family because men would never opt to have another one! 

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: If abortion is murder . . . - 7/2/2013 4:35:12 PM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Abortion is murder.

So should we punish those who perform or receive abortions the same way we punish other murderers?


That's a tough one.

Women that claim rape and later denounce or are proven to have lied...yeah....X's 2 jail time.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: If abortion is murder . . . - 7/2/2013 4:36:33 PM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

My mum always said that if men had babies, there would never be more than 1 child in any family because men would never opt to have another one! 


If men could have babies, every toy manufacturer would be out of business in 6 weeks.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: If abortion is murder . . . - 7/2/2013 4:40:15 PM   
dcnovice


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Joined: 8/2/2006
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quote:

That's a tough one.

It shouldn't be if one truly believes abortion is murder.

quote:

Women that claim rape and later denounce or are proven to have lied...yeah....X's 2 jail time.

What about ordinary women? And their docs?

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to LookieNoNookie)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: If abortion is murder . . . - 7/2/2013 4:43:43 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		How about the women who have early kidney failure, diabetes, high blood pressure or an assortment of other medical issues and simply dont want to take the risk of having a baby?

Everyone wants to zero in on the liars and the "lazy" women who want to use abortion as birth control. Thats a great theory. Its not a true one.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: If abortion is murder . . . - 7/2/2013 5:00:11 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

My mum always said that if men had babies, there would never be more than 1 child in any family because men would never opt to have another one! 


There might not be any babies at all in most cases, from what I've heard.

Interesting. I'll have to check - but my feeling is that most men aren't actually that bothered about having babies at all. Or at least, nowhere near as much as women are.

I feel a bit of Google researching coming on, by Crackey!

_____________________________

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(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 100
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