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Feelings and Responsibility - 6/26/2006 6:52:54 PM

genvieve

Posts: 228
Joined: 5/14/2005
From: SF Bay Area
Status: offline

i did not wish to highjack the diappointment thread. slavejali noted several actions she had preformed which resulted in her Master's disappointment. my feelings are this:

When someone preforms a wrong-doing on another person, the person who committed the wrong-doing is not responsible for the receiving partner's feelings. In other words, while the person on the receiving end may certainly be justified in their feelings; and while those feelings may be in response to another's action; the recepient of wrong-doing is responsible for what ever feelings come about as a result of the wrong-doer's actions.

In other words, the wrong-doer themselves, regardless of the actions they have committed, is not responsible for what the wronged person feels.

In conclusion, each person is responsible for his or her own feelings, regardless of another's actions.

_____________________________

In the quietness of myself, i find myself at the mercy of Your hand.

Musical Wishes Design

Post #: 1

RE: Feelings and Responsibility - 6/26/2006 7:03:18 PM

LadiesBladewing

Posts: 944
Joined: 8/31/2005
Status: offline

While it is true that each of us is responsible for our own feelings, and for the manner in which we react and respond to the things that occur in our lives, whether internally or externally generated, there are individuals who, hearing this, will take it to mean that they have -no- responsibility for actions that injure others.

I wish to clarify that, while an individual may be responsible for his or her own feelings, he or she is also completely justified in requesting recompense for wrongs, regardless of the feelings generated, and the individual who acted in an inappropriate manner IS responsible for his or her actions, and for working to correct any damage done (again, regardless of anyone's feelings on the matter).

Attempting things like: "I'm sorry you decided to get upset because I screwed around with your committed partner behind your back, and convinced him not to tell you or I'd punish him" are an aggravant to the injury already inflicted. An apology like this is NOT an appropriate apology -- at least in our demense. If I've been wronged, the individual who has done so had better NOT try to blame the intensity of my feelings as the cause of the problem. The feelings are irrelevant. The inappropriate action -does- need to be repaired, or suitable justice wrought.

ZWD

_____________________________

"Should have", "could have", "would have" and "can't" may be the most dangerous phrases in the English language.
Bladewing Enclave

(in reply to genvieve)

Post #: 2

RE: Feelings and Responsibility - 6/26/2006 7:15:42 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: genvieve
In conclusion, each person is responsible for his or her own feelings, regardless of another's actions.

This is very true and should never be forgotten.

HOWEVER, in relationships we allow ourselves to be affected by others, and my actions WILL have direct effects on the emotions of those around me. I need to take responsibility for what that means within a relationship together.

As wonderful as doms are, we can't flip a switch it someone's head and make you go from sad to happy all the time. Your feelings are your own.

However, if I made a special date with you and then forgot and went on a date with someone else- it's completely reasonable for you to have certain feelings in response to that.

Being in a relationship with someone means accepting the awareness and responsibility of your actions affecting another. This is usually why we get into relationships in the first place. This doesn't mean we take ON the feelings of the other and become fully responsible for them, simply that we accept responsibility for the interactions we have together.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to genvieve)

Post #: 3

RE: Feelings and Responsibility - 6/26/2006 7:17:01 PM

slavejali

Posts: 2918
Status: offline

quote:

In conclusion, each person is responsible for his or her own feelings, regardless of another's actions.

That's a basic truth everyone should keep as a personal philosophy to live by.

However, I'd like to add something. In relationship, there is interaction. In relationship there are two people (or more), the relationship itself is "one". The people involved together, create a different body that unifies and joins them, that new body is called 'relationship'. Relationship is kinda like a big bubble that the people are encompased in. Whatever one person does, is going to effect the other person inside the bubble. If the two remained totally independent of the other, in regards to *relating* and interacting, there would be no relationship, there would be two bubbles not ever quite ever being able to connect with the other. (Wondering if my visualisation is making any sense)....

So, anyways...to continue

Within this bubble world of relationship, scenarios are going to play out. Sure each person is responsible for their own feelings and thoughts but to actually have a relationship and remain within the bubble, little statements such as "I'm disappointed" are excellent, it allows the other person inside the bubble to respond and allows the bubble world to get bigger. So in that way the other person is responsible, they have a responsibility to the relationship, and to keep their bubble from bursting..hehehe

What I'm saying is, in relationship, it is the responsibility of both people, its not entirely on the head of just one of them. Just being in the relationship makes it so.

Oh to be in my mind some days *grin*

_____________________________

Freedom in Bondage

Different Strokes for Different Folks

"I'll always have a *soft spot* for Sadists"

(in reply to genvieve)

Post #: 4

RE: Feelings and Responsibility - 6/26/2006 7:27:27 PM

gardenbluebird

Posts: 131
Joined: 5/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: genvieve

In other words, the wrong-doer themselves, regardless of the actions they have committed, is not responsible for what the wronged person feels.

In conclusion, each person is responsible for his or her own feelings, regardless of another's actions.

That is nonsense. Let's take an extreme example - sexual assualt. Are you saying the the perp is in no way responsible for the feelings of violation that the victim feels? Another example - home invasion robbery. The victim feels unsafe for a period of time afterwards. The robber bears no responsiblity in this? Another extreme example - murder. Does the killer have no responsiblity for the heartache caused?

These are exteme examples, but the same principles apply to all kinds of victimization. From assault to cheating it's all hurtful. There are victims and cruelty in this world. To deny the effect and whitewash it by saying that people are responsible for the own feelings denies the validity of those feelings.

It is the reponsibility of each person to seek whatever assistance is necessary and to go through the process to heal. In that sense yes people are responsible to their own feelings. However, people on the receiving end of cruelty at the hands of others are not reponsible for putting themselves in the position of needing to be healed.

(in reply to genvieve)

Post #: 5

RE: Feelings and Responsibility - 6/26/2006 7:30:17 PM

slavejali

Posts: 2918
Status: offline

I remember this old saying, sorry I cant recall who wrote it, "There is a ripple effect in all that we do, what you do touches me, what I do touches you."

_____________________________

Freedom in Bondage

Different Strokes for Different Folks

"I'll always have a *soft spot* for Sadists"

(in reply to gardenbluebird)

Post #: 6

RE: Feelings and Responsibility - 6/26/2006 7:43:10 PM

mistoferin

Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline

genvieve, you're not going to get any argument from me. But a word of advice from a seasoned veteran....you just made a post that suggests that people should be personally responsible for themselves. This is not a subject that it seems many wish to hear. You have in essence, just committed message board suicide....I suggest you immediately find yourself a flame proof suit.....and buckle in....this could be a long and bumpy ride.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to genvieve)

Post #: 7

RE: Feelings and Responsibility - 6/26/2006 7:50:10 PM

cynthiamarie

Posts: 205
Joined: 3/11/2005
From: Bluefield, WV, USA
Status: offline

quote:

In other words, the wrong-doer themselves, regardless of the actions they have committed, is not responsible for what the wronged person feels.

In conclusion, each person is responsible for his or her own feelings, regardless of another's actions.

Hm, my feelings are different on this subject.

We're often stuck dealing with our own feelings alone, but that doesn't make it right.

If I've screwed up and have HURT someone, I am responsible for the pain I caused. If I have to comfort them, hear them rant and purge themselves and then say I'm sorry, I'm big enough to do that. If by my own actions, I betrayed all the trust someone had in me, I would NOT say they were at fault for feeling betrayed...I would expect them to feel betrayed, and we'd both have to live with the consequences.

When I see a dog or other animal who has been abused so much that all it can do is cringe around everyone, I don't blame the animal for feeling this way, nor do I expect it to heal itself. A human did this and a human is needed to repair the emotional damage as much as is possible.

I've been there for too many hurting people (and animals, smiles) to think that people should shrug off responsibility so easily. When we don't deal with the fallout from what we dish out, someone else has to.

I could never be with someone who wasn't "man enough" to say he was sorry and try his best to put things to rights.

(in reply to LadiesBladewing)

Post #: 8

RE: Feelings and Responsibility - 6/26/2006 8:01:18 PM

scratchingpost

Posts: 231
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: genvieve
In conclusion, each person is responsible for his or her own feelings, regardless of another's actions.

This is very true and should never be forgotten.

HOWEVER, in relationships we allow ourselves to be affected by others, and my actions WILL have direct effects on the emotions of those around me. I need to take responsibility for what that means within a relationship together.

As wonderful as doms are, we can't flip a switch it someone's head and make you go from sad to happy all the time. Your feelings are your own.

However, if I made a special date with you and then forgot and went on a date with someone else- it's completely reasonable for you to have certain feelings in response to that.

Being in a relationship with someone means accepting the awareness and responsibility of your actions affecting another. This is usually why we get into relationships in the first place. This doesn't mean we take ON the feelings of the other and become fully responsible for them, simply that we accept responsibility for the interactions we have together.

I totally agree with LA...In the relationship I had with My former Owner I think I was angered more than anything because he never accepted responsability as My dominant when his actions let Me down or hurt Me in some way. Yet held Me accountable for all the reactions I had and mistakes I made due to his behavior...in time it basically killed whatever part of Me was a submissive.

_____________________________

be safe and smile
purrrs kitty
(=^.^=)
www.misskittys-scratchingpost.com

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 9

RE: Feelings and Responsibility - 6/27/2006 7:22:58 AM

CreativeDominant

Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline

I'm going to come down on the same side as cynthiamarie and gardenbluebird. I've discussed this on slavejali's disappointment thread and on other threads.

No matter how much we'd like to sometimes, we can't divorce ourselves from our actions. If we know our actions are most likely to cause another person to feel "EMOTIONAL HURT" for example, we cannot excuse ourselves by saying "well yes, I knew my actions would cause hurt and I am sorry for my actions but I personally am not responsible for you feeling hurt...you are responsible for your own feelings."

What I find interesting here...and not casting stones at anyone in particular, just a general observation...is this: In the threads where a dominant...usually male...is being laid to waste for the wrong he has done to some submissive...usually female, I see very few posts telling the wronged submissive that while his actions were wrong, he himself was not responsible for the way the submissive was left feeling, she herself was.

Maybe its just my perspective from the way I was raised, what was expected of me in the service, what my own profession expects of me, my feelings about things I've done in my life but ...for me, anyway...it is a matter of a version of the "I" statement as it relates to what I do; if my actions hurt you, anger you, sadden you...then I am responsible. I may not be responsible for the depth/intensity of your feelings but I am responsible for causing those feelings. Perhaps this is what you folks are saying in a roundabout way because I note that most of you recognize that your actions (and therefore you) can cause another to feel something...we appear to differ on what that is. I say it is you and I say it is feelings; you say it is your actions and while not responsible for what the person feels, it is understood that certain feelings are justified.

(in reply to scratchingpost)

Post #: 10

RE: Feelings and Responsibility - 6/27/2006 7:46:06 AM

LaTigresse

Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline

This should be very interesting.
I often get frustrated at the current thought process of humankind to blame others for their problems rather than take responsibility for themselves.
I have a belief that while we cannot control others we can control how we let their actions affect us and our life.
I believe that human emotion is a part of ego rather than the spirit/soul.
I also believe that we do have a responsibility to put positive energy out by not intentionally doing anything to hurt others. While that seems a direct contradiction I think it is two seperate things. Energy wether negative or positive affects not just the people in our imediate lives but, as someone said, has a ripple effect.
Part of taking responsiblity for ourselves also means following thru on commitments. If someone has made a commitment to me and breaks that, how it affects me is MY responsibility. I can either use it as an excuse for negative thoughts/actions/energy on my part or accept it as their choice/responsiblity and not allow it to hurt me or cause me to make equally bad choices in response.

(in reply to CreativeDominant)

Post #: 11

RE: Feelings and Responsibility - 6/27/2006 7:51:14 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

The answer has to be a relative. People's feelings can be out of proportion to the wrong inflicted on them, whether through over reaction or lack reaction and the person who provoked the reaction can't always be held responsible for someone whose reactions are out of proportion. However, as someone has pointed out through an extreme example such as a sexual assault or similar, the perpetrator has to be responsible for his/her actions too.

One could write a philosophical treatise on this.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 6/27/2006 7:52:00 AM >

(in reply to genvieve)

Post #: 12

RE: Feelings and Responsibility - 6/27/2006 8:19:24 AM

TxBadMan

Posts: 198
Joined: 4/7/2006
From: Moody, Texas
Status: offline

quote:

In conclusion, each person is responsible for his or her own feelings, regardless of another's actions.

Most feelings are the result of an action; whether directly or indirectly. If my actions, whether directly or indirectly, have caused my girls to have mixed feelings, then it is my responsibility and I take the blame for it. As far as I am concerned, there are very few exemptions to this.

Naturally, this is just my own personal xp and opinion in the matter; I am sure that others look on it differently.

_____________________________

Chris

(in reply to genvieve)

Post #: 13

RE: Feelings and Responsibility - 6/27/2006 8:31:14 AM

Caretakr

Posts: 1221
Joined: 6/24/2006
Status: offline

At the same time,dimissing the feelings of one you have wronged as invalid, is the coping behavior of a sociopath.

Having a conscience is worthy of assigning merit.

(in reply to genvieve)

Post #: 14

RE: Feelings and Responsibility - 6/27/2006 9:09:29 AM

scratchingpost

Posts: 231
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline

interesting point .....sociopath.....In My experience the person who hurt Me blamed Me for My reactions to that pain making it all My fault. When I wanted to discuss it, he didnt want to listen or hear it as it was My problem for feeling that way and My fault for it all....neglecting the fact that (and this sounds super childish) he started it all. One has to take responsability for ones actions and feelings yes however it goes BOTH ways,.

_____________________________

be safe and smile
purrrs kitty
(=^.^=)
www.misskittys-scratchingpost.com

(in reply to Caretakr)

Post #: 15

RE: Feelings and Responsibility - 6/27/2006 9:18:21 AM

mistoferin

Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline

fast reply.....

If 10 Dominants ask me to go out with them....and I give them the exact same answer, in the exact same tone, "Thank you for your interest in me and I am flattered by your offer, however, I don't think we would make a good match and I will respectfully have to decline"....you can bet that there will be 10 different responses. Dominant #1 may think it was cool and appreciate the fact that I didn't waste his time.....all the way up to Dominant #10 may crushed by my rejection and may just go out and blow his head off. I'm sure there would also be many reactions in between. Am I responsible for the feelings that they choose....yes I said choose....to own? I think not.

We all have the power to choose what we walk away owning.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to scratchingpost)

Post #: 16

RE: Feelings and Responsibility - 6/27/2006 9:34:01 AM

NINASHARP

Posts: 295
Joined: 4/23/2006
From: NJ/NYC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

This should be very interesting.
I often get frustrated at the current thought process of humankind to blame others for their problems rather than take responsibility for themselves.
I have a belief that while we cannot control others we can control how we let their actions affect us and our life.
I believe that human emotion is a part of ego rather than the spirit/soul.
I also believe that we do have a responsibility to put positive energy out by not intentionally doing anything to hurt others. While that seems a direct contradiction I think it is two seperate things. Energy wether negative or positive affects not just the people in our imediate lives but, as someone said, has a ripple effect.
Part of taking responsiblity for ourselves also means following thru on commitments. If someone has made a commitment to me and breaks that, how it affects me is MY responsibility. I can either use it as an excuse for negative thoughts/actions/energy on my part or accept it as their choice/responsiblity and not allow it to hurt me or cause me to make equally bad choices in response.

Thank You LaTigresse,

I agree with what you state here. Although often I over look the fact that I am not immune to the pain brought out by another person, my first response is always to fight the feelings of numbness and I try not feel anything in that moment, especially if it is a loss of some kind. Yet, I still find myself at times reacting without thinking first. And Yes I do feel I am responsible to how I react as well as when I react. Sometimes when I'm let down, I tend to let myself over react in the negative sense, and I would probably benefit myself better if I would instead remove myself from the moment and sort through the disappointment with more clarity and then coming back to the situation with a more clear handle on how I will be affected by it. Does that make sense?.

Nina

(in reply to LaTigresse)

Post #: 17

RE: Feelings and Responsibility - 6/27/2006 9:45:54 AM

lisa1978

Posts: 224
Joined: 5/19/2006
From: Kansas City
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: genvieve

In conclusion, each person is responsible for his or her own feelings, regardless of another's actions.

I think that sounds great in a world of pure logic but we are human beings and irrational behavior just creeps in. We cannot control our feelings and if some of these are unleashed by people whose actions were not proper then that is just turning the other cheek and letting the bully win. Being responsible for our feelings is important and will not pretend it is not. At the same time though using this philosophy can cause one to shut off their feelings which to me can cause damage to the person and their family and friends.

I particularly just hate this type of sentiment. Nobody can argue that anybody should have the end responsibility for anothers feelings, but I see this comment far too often from people who use this thought process to justify things they have said and done to others that is not taken well.

I am not talking about sugar coating everything so a person never steps on the feelings of another but common curtesy, manners and thoughtfulness to me is a long way from sugar coating and never telling somone what they do not want to here. Responible for ones feelings is quite different from a person being responsible for one's actions. Many times these overlap.

_____________________________

It hurts sometimes more than we can bear. If we could live without passion, maybe we'd know some kind of peace. But we would be hollow. Empty rooms, shuttered and dank. Without passion, we'd be truly dead.

(in reply to genvieve)

Post #: 18

RE: Feelings and Responsibility - 6/27/2006 10:39:01 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

In other words, the wrong-doer themselves, regardless of the actions they have committed, is not responsible for what the wronged person feels.

In conclusion, each person is responsible for his or her own feelings, regardless of another's actions.

genvieve,
You've just discounted 99% of all the threads posted on this site, regardless if it was made by a submissive or dominant.

"I was lied and he/she was married~!" - Well too bad, you're responsible for the way you feel.

"I thought we were exclusive and my partner had a secret profile!" So? That's their problem it shouldn't effect your feelings.

No need to create more examples. It should make the search for a partner fairly easy if you don't place any responsibility for your feelings on the person you seek. Hell, you can do pick one at random and take your chances, because after all, whatever you feel is your responsibility not his/hers.

Most of the time feelings and your partners empathy regarding your feelings is the very reason we seek a relationship. Increasing or going deeper with that empathy is a positive consequence of trust and is the closest definition you can get to, dare I say it, love. Without it, buy a facilitating tool or attach a flogger to a fan blade and back into it. The fan won't care how the experience makes you feel, and when the motor wears out, you won't need to hold a funeral for a friend.

(in reply to genvieve)

Post #: 19

RE: Feelings and Responsibility - 6/27/2006 11:15:30 AM

LaTigresse

Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline

But you see lisa I believe we can control our feelings, I don't mean to shut them off or disregard them but we can control them.

For instance, someone could tell me "you are fat!" Now, I cannot control wether or not they said it but I can determine how I will feel and react to that. My first impulse would probably be to get my wittle feelings hurt and strike back with a more vile and hurtful comment. Bad idea! What I would choose to do would be consider the source and therefor their purpose for uttering it. I can also control how I feel about MYSELF and wether or not I am giving their statement any validation.

To a troubled young woman with her own self image issues that starves herself to nothing but skin and bones like we see in the media all to often I would be fat!

If someone is saying it just to get a rise out of me, then there is NO WAY I am going to validate their comment. That is one of the most patheticly sad attacks I have seen online when they cannot think of anything else to say. I will just laugh and crack a joke about it.

If it is a child saying it to me in a bikini at the beach, I would probably agree and admit I didn't belong in the bloody bikini at this age and a size 14.

If it were my doctor and they were telling me that I am fat and need to lose weight for my health......then I would take it seriously, grumble, and agree.

My point is that no, we cannot control how people will treat us but yes, we really can control how we will react to their treatment. How we going to let it affect us both short term and long term. I was a sexually molested child, that sucks. Guess what there are alot of people, even some that I have great respect for on this site, that I KNOW suffered much much worse. I cannot and could not do anything about what some creep did to a 11 year old girl 33 years ago but I can control how I feel about it and how I allow it to affect me. I am responsible for that. I don't know if any of that makes any sense to anyone but me but it sure beats the hell out of spending a lifetime feeling sorry for oneself and using crap we could not control as an excuse for why we continue to screw up and refuse to take responsibility for it.

(in reply to lisa1978)

Post #: 20

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