RE: California rape case begins

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PeonForHer -> RE: California rape case begins (6/6/2013 1:16:00 PM)
quote: This mirrors the Ohio rape charge with people watching and taking photos. It's this that baffles me the most. At first I thought, 'She was out of her head - it may have looked like she was into a multi-bonk' - but, apparently, she was being manhandled pretty brutally as well.

tazzygirl -> RE: California rape case begins (6/6/2013 1:29:10 PM)
quote: MARTINEZ -- Almost three years after Manuel Ortega ripped a Richmond High School girl's clothes off, punched and kicked her in the head, sexually assaulted her and encouraged others to do the same outside a homecoming dance, the 22-year-old apologized Friday as he was sentenced to 32 years in prison. Another report... quote: "The series of events that occurred over the next 2½ hours got more severe and more vicious to where she was ultimately gang raped and beaten, and her injuries were so severe that she had to be sent to the hospital in a helicopter," Gagan told KGO. Blood alcohol level of .33. This girl was severely messed up.

jlf1961 -> RE: California rape case begins (6/6/2013 2:35:49 PM)
Gee, Parents dont teach moral values anymore, hell parents are afraid to discipline their kids today. Kid misbehaves, put em in time out. That is supposed to teach them a lesson? Kids have learned alot from the court cases where clearly guilty defendants were declared innocent. Now we are raising a generation of sociopaths and psychopaths. and people wonder why the hell I own guns. Simple, it is illegal to plant mine fields around your property and allow large feline predators to roam your property to protect it.

PeonForHer -> RE: California rape case begins (6/6/2013 3:25:55 PM)
This incident, for me, stinks of the 'pack mind'. For me, the single most important thing for a kid to know - for an adult to know - is that he or she must have the bollocks to stand against the group.

Aswad -> RE: California rape case begins (6/6/2013 7:39:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri I hope this shit goes viral and starts a revival of personal responsibility and morality. Like back in the days when people just stood by for lynchings, segregation and so forth? No, what you need, is to teach respect, by which I don't mean fear. quote: Picture takers and gawkers should be rewarded with harsh sentences. Not if they provide testimony and submit the pictures as evidence. In fact, probably not at all, since it would be legislating against one of the dominant human traits: passivity in a social context. quote: That fucker that talked to her father should really get raked over the coals. On what charges? Being an immoral douchebag doesn't strike me as a valid crime. quote: It's a damn shame that this shit happens. Damn. Agreed. IWYW, — Aswad. P.S.: Again, it strikes me that a thread about a horrific crime contains a lot of examples of how such crimes happen.

Aswad -> RE: California rape case begins (6/6/2013 7:44:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer This incident, for me, stinks of the 'pack mind'. For me, the single most important thing for a kid to know - for an adult to know - is that he or she must have the bollocks to stand against the group. That's the definition of an adult in my book, Peon, but adults are rare. Furthermore, adults may object to the direction society as a whole is taking, or the direction the movers and shakers are taking, so it's not particularly hard to come up with some mechanisms that select against adulthood. Going by what people are saying on here, in this thread and others, the proposed solution to the problem is to select even harder against adulthood. Shrug. I don't see that paying off. IWYW, — Aswad.

DesideriScuri -> RE: California rape case begins (6/6/2013 7:46:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri I hope this shit goes viral and starts a revival of personal responsibility and morality. Like back in the days when people just stood by for lynchings, segregation and so forth? No, what you need, is to teach respect, by which I don't mean fear. Yeah. That's it. WTF is the point of that questioning? Damn. Personal responsibility to do what is right, and morality to know what is right and wrong. Yes, respect is damn important, too, and I wish I would have included it. quote: quote: Picture takers and gawkers should be rewarded with harsh sentences. Not if they provide testimony and submit the pictures as evidence. In fact, probably not at all, since it would be legislating against one of the dominant human traits: passivity in a social context. Yep. No morality or responsibility. None of them called the cops (according to the story). They're fucked, afaic. quote: quote: That fucker that talked to her father should really get raked over the coals. On what charges? Being an immoral douchebag doesn't strike me as a valid crime. He was involved in the rape, and went so far as to tell the father how good she was. There have been cases where some sentences are more lenient because the criminal was remorseful. This should not be one of those cases. quote: quote: It's a damn shame that this shit happens. Damn. Agreed. IWYW, — Aswad. P.S.: Again, it strikes me that a thread about a horrific crime contains a lot of examples of how such crimes happen. Not sure what you're saying with that P.S., Aswad.

graceadieu -> RE: California rape case begins (6/7/2013 10:05:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Picture takers and gawkers should be rewarded with harsh sentences. Agreed. All the onlookers should be charged with accessory to the crime, and do some prison time.

muhly22222 -> RE: California rape case begins (6/7/2013 11:44:22 AM)
quote: I have issues with the defense attorney's "beliefs" about how his client's dna ended up on a used condom found at the scene. But, its an attempt at a defense. Don't judge a defense attorney by his arguments on behalf of a client. We sometimes have to do terrible things because we have an ethical duty to our clients. While the case here in Ohio was going on, I was talking about it with somebody from CM, and I said that if I was defending an accused rapist, and the facts were such that "blame the victim" was an argument that might get some play with the jury, I would do it...then I'd go home and cry about having done it. I'd probably write a letter to the victim apologizing after everything was done, too. Why would two of the defendants have taken reduced sentences? Obviously, it lowers their exposure. They may have been asked to testify against the other defendants (because the eyewitness testimony from a participant could be invaluable to the prosecutor). And the victim agreed to the sentences. quote: I can't fathom how parole being available is justice. You get into all the different possible definitions of justice, and the purpose of punishment. Is it merely to make the offender pay for his actions? Is there a goal of rehabilitating an offender? Making an example out of an offender to deter other potential offenders? But if you recognize any value in rehabilitating an offender, you need to give them a reason to rehabilitate. They won't do it if they're just going to spend the rest of their lives in prison, anyway (and while 32 years isn't the rest of their lives, it's so long that they probably won't care about changing themselves until they're 25 years into it). Providing the chance for parole eligibility will give them a reason to rehabilitate, to seek out the help that they need to do that. Whether that be therapy, religion, philosophy...whatever works for them, but it gives them a reason to seek it out.

tazzygirl -> RE: California rape case begins (6/7/2013 11:59:10 AM)
quote: Don't judge a defense attorney by his arguments on behalf of a client. We sometimes have to do terrible things because we have an ethical duty to our clients. While the case here in Ohio was going on, I was talking about it with somebody from CM, and I said that if I was defending an accused rapist, and the facts were such that "blame the victim" was an argument that might get some play with the jury, I would do it...then I'd go home and cry about having done it. I'd probably write a letter to the victim apologizing after everything was done, too. I didnt judge them, I said I had issues with it. However, I also said they are entitled to a defense

Hillwilliam -> RE: California rape case begins (6/7/2013 5:16:55 PM)
DS, as bad as I hate it, if we can shield the victim from more horror and she is cool with it, I'm OK with the deal allowing the people to testify for a reduced sentence. We should never revictimize a victim. (was that a word?)

LafayetteLady -> RE: California rape case begins (6/7/2013 7:31:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Would you turn on someone with that clause, knowing that if you go to trial and get a life sentence, you will be eligible for parole in 10 years. I find it despicable that kids would engage in this behavior. I find it that reprehensible, that I can't fathom how parole being available is justice. I can't understand how justice can be served - which I'm certain we agree needs to happen - by reducing a sentence because someone has plead guilty, even if they have agreed to testify against the rest. How can it be that those kids can't be subpoenaed for their testimonies, deal or no deal? I'm sure you have heard of the 5th Amendment? They can't be forced to incriminate themselves, and therefore, forced to testify. A plea deal offers the prosecution to be able to get more of the defendants guilty verdicts because those who made "deals" no longer need to worry about incriminating themselves.

LafayetteLady -> RE: California rape case begins (6/7/2013 7:36:58 PM)
There isn't a law that states one MUST stop a crime from being committed. However, there are laws about inciting crimes. Cheering and such would be considered such incitement and therefore, yes, they can be charged. They weren't "passive." They didn't participate in the rape, but they did participate in the act as a whole by cheering the others on.

truckinslave -> RE: California rape case begins (6/7/2013 10:47:52 PM)
quote: And this is the result of parents insisting their children " do no wrong". Society insists there is no right, no wrong. Rather,that the only wrong is judging one thing better than another. Family? One parent households must be equal to two-parent households. Religion? Ho hum. One is as good- or as bad- as another. Here legally? Illegally? Really. What's the difference? You want it and don't have it? Not your fault. Take it. I am just so thankful I didn't get that call, although it might be pretty interesting to see how long it would take them to make a charge stick.... I wonder how many I could get. My brief time as a cop taught me that mainly drunks and idiots get caught. If there are no witnesses, and you don't leave evidence....

truckinslave -> RE: California rape case begins (6/7/2013 10:50:14 PM)
quote: How can it be that those kids can't be subpoenaed for their testimonies, deal or no deal? When the death penalty is off the table, and solitary confinement is unconstitutional.... what, exactly, are you going to do to them if they don't testify?

tazzygirl -> RE: California rape case begins (6/7/2013 10:55:40 PM)
quote: Family? One parent households must be equal to two-parent households. I have seen some pretty fucked up individuals that came from two parent homes.. and some wonderful from a one parent home. One isnt necessarily better than the other for the absence of a parent. Add in an abusive parent and its better there is only one.

Real0ne -> RE: California rape case begins (6/7/2013 10:59:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl I really dont hold out much hope for this generation. well you can take pride knowing that its your generation that bore and raised them to such high standards!

tazzygirl -> RE: California rape case begins (6/7/2013 11:00:58 PM)
Naaaaa.... lol.... these are 17 year olds. Im grandma to these kids. Did you see this one? http://likes.com/comedy/why-this-is-the-worst-teenager-on-instagram?pid=104528&utm_source=mylikes&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=ml&utm_term=25095118

Powergamz1 -> RE: California rape case begins (6/7/2013 11:06:18 PM)
'Respect' as in 'respect for your betters' is part and parcel of lynchings, segregation, etc. quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad Like back in the days when people just stood by for lynchings, segregation and so forth? No, what you need, is to teach respect, by which I don't mean fear. <SNIP> [P.S.: Again, it strikes me that a thread about a horrific crime contains a lot of examples of how such crimes happen. These irony meters aren't cheap, you know.

jlf1961 -> RE: California rape case begins (6/8/2013 12:01:56 AM)
As I said, the guys that committed the act are not humans, they are animals, and should be treated as such. I am sick and tired of hearing people scream about the rights of the criminal, and say jack shit about the rights of the victim. As for the people who stood around and watched and did nothing, they should be arrested and charged as accessories. And in this case, a bill should be passed real fucking fast in California making the death penalty available for those that committed the crime and those that watched and did nothing.

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