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[Poll]

Got a connection?

I served/am serving

30% (18)

I have immediate family who recently served/are serving

40% (24)

I know people with family in the military

21% (13)

Nobody in my family since Vietnam

0% (0)

Nobody in my family since World War II

3% (2)

That's for people who aren't like me

5% (3)

Total Votes : 60

(last vote on : 6/1/2013 9:45:29 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )

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RE: Got a connection? - 5/28/2013 8:00:18 PM

DarkSteven

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

So I'm reading the New York Times' Memorial Day preach piece, and it contained the sobering statistic that a mere 0.5% of the US population joins the military.

In light of another thread, I'm wondering how many here have any connection at all to the modern military. Multiple selections are available.

Why is it bad that the military has so few people in it? People are expensive, and they get shot at if they're in the service. Had we not invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, there'd be far fewer servicepeople.

To answer your question - my father served during the Korean war, unwillingly. My sub was in the Air Force for 20 years.

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 61

RE: Got a connection? - 5/28/2013 8:04:07 PM

dcnovice

Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
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quote:

Why is it bad that the military has so few people in it?

One theory I've read is that if more of us had direct links to the military--i.e., knew the folks being sent into harm's way--we might be more vigilant about being sure we had truly credible reasons for deploying them.

ETA: The debates about the wars of my adulthood--the Gulf, Iraq, Afghanistan--have been, I cringe to admit, all too easy to tune out because those wars were unlikely to affect anyone I knew. Had there been the prospect of someone's handing my mom or aunt a neatly folded flag to replace the child she'd lost, I suspect I'd have been a far more engaged citizen.

< Message edited by dcnovice -- 5/28/2013 8:09:55 PM >

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to DarkSteven)

Post #: 62

RE: Got a connection? - 5/29/2013 12:09:46 PM

Hillwilliam

Posts: 19394
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Who wrote this article and why can't he do 6th grade math?

Here's a link to the article, Hill, and while they may have calculated their statistic along different parameters than you did, looking at the bios on the authors, I'm going to give the benefit of any doubt to them.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/27/opinion/americans-and-their-military-drifting-apart.html?_r=0

I showed the sources of my numbers.
I showed my calculations.

There are 3 possibilities.

1. My numbers are wrong
2. My math is incorrect
3. The author of the article is full of shit and counting on people who will just read his title and drink the koolaid.
if you cannot show that either #1 or #2 is true, you must accept #3.

21.5 Million living vets plus 2.28 Million active duty and reserves equals a HELL of a lot more than 0.5% of the American population that the author claimed.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 63

RE: Got a connection? - 5/29/2013 2:47:02 PM

CynthiaWVirginia

Posts: 1915
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From: West Virginia, USA
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My sister, stepbrother, uncles, cousins, and my grandfather all served in the military. Army, Navy, Marines...but none in the Air Force (so far).

I will not be able to visit my paternal grandfather's grave, as he lived in Indiana and it's just too far away for me to travel. Someday I want to visit the ship he had served on, it's in Virginia somewhere.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 64

RE: Got a connection? - 5/29/2013 3:19:31 PM

playfulotter

Posts: 2195
Joined: 6/27/2005
Status: offline

oops I answered "nobody in my family since WWII" but I have an uncle who was a career military man in the Army and served in Korea.

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(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 65

RE: Got a connection? - 5/29/2013 5:39:00 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
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That's lovely, Hill, but when it comes to how I assign credibility, stars on the shoulders trump a giant cock on an internet profile. Now I found their number surprising as well, so I'm guessing it's in reference to the wars of this century, while you are counting the total living folks who served at any time.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)

Post #: 66

RE: Got a connection? - 5/29/2013 5:50:32 PM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
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We need an "I served but since I supported vice-treasonist cheney I`ve lost any credibility my service might have lent me"

There`s a lotta folks like that....right rich?

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President Obama

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 67

RE: Got a connection? - 5/29/2013 6:02:47 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

One theory I've read is that if more of us had direct links to the military--i.e., knew the folks being sent into harm's way--we might be more vigilant about being sure we had truly credible reasons for deploying them.

There is certainly that, DC, but there is also the aspect of the shared common experience, and common cause among those who have taken the oath, and worn the uniform.

Only an utter fool would assume that all veterans are just alike, and see the world in the same monochromatic paradigm. We are all over the spectrum in our politics, and beliefs about the best course for our country to take into the future. The common cause reveals itself in a love of our country, and a proven willingness to act in accordance with that. We have all walked the walk. We are all a bit more personally invested in the US of A than those who have not served (I probably just made somebody get all ruffled with defensiveness over that, but oh well.)

Instilling that sense of common cause, and the experience of having been in service to the country, is one of the reasons I think everyone should be expected to perform a couple years of some kind of national service (and that can be far, far, outside the frame of military service alone).

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 68

RE: Got a connection? - 5/29/2013 6:11:56 PM

dcnovice

Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline

quote:

Instilling that sense of common cause, and the experience of having been in service to the country, is one of the reasons I think everyone should be expected to perform a couple years of some kind of national service (and that can be far, far, outside the frame of military service alone).

Now that I'm safely beyond draft age, I think that's an excellent idea.

Among other benefits, a year or two of service between HS and college might make for more mature undergraduates. I read ages ago (can't recall where, alas) that some academics dreaded the onslaught of former GIs (including many who might not previously have been considered "college material") after WW2, only to find that the vets were more serious students. As one GI Bill beneficiary recalled, "It's one thing to bring a bad report card home to your folks. It's quite another to bring it home to your kids."

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 69

RE: Got a connection? - 5/29/2013 6:23:17 PM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

Both my parents were in the USAF.They met in Ponce, Puerto Rico while stationed there.The USAF base is still there.The youngsters doing small two/three week rotations there are awesome guys.They`re everywhere in San Juan.

My mom was part of the very 1st female Air Force personnel,working in the secretarial offices.My dad was an intelligence officer.

They served during the Korean war.Guber,the actor from The Andy Griffith show was my dads bunk mate.I have photos of him with bottles of booze.

My dad went to college on the GI bill and sold text books for Random House till he decided to take carpentry from a hobby to a living.

They retired to St Thomas USVI,(you could see Puerto Rico from their front porch)

My dad is gone and my mom is now being cared for in the NJ VA nursing home.She has full blown dementia.

As liberals,one thing they never did was flaunt their service or brag about it.Much less claim to love America more because they served or that others did not love America as much b/c the didn`t serve.

My older brother was an air traffic controller in the USAF, stationed at a base in northern Texas,Wichita Falls.He now lives in the town of Wichita Falls.

I have a great deal of respect for vets and those serving in the military.Whenever I can,I buy diner for a table full or one guy traveling home.I always do this anonymously with the waiter`s help.

When you talk with them,most of them aren`t interested in politics and it isn`t what drives most people who serve.9/11 was a huge game changer and will have lasting affects for decades.

They are precious and priceless and their lives shouldn`t counted like so many dollars.....

On the question of drafting......whether it goes that way or not,we should never ever let someone as callous and caviler as bush was to trick us into needlessly sacrificing our young men and women on their stupid cowardly whims.

During WWII...when we really were fighting real evil.......anyone in our government that tricked us into sending thousands of GIs into a country that had nothing to do with hitler or fascism, would have to face a bit more than a few congressional hearings.....

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 5/29/2013 6:26:38 PM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 70

RE: Got a connection? - 5/29/2013 7:57:43 PM

littlewonder

Posts: 15659
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

The VA puts flags on every military grave where my husband is buried. They do it for every single holiday.

That is standard in the national cemetaries AIUI. However there are a lot of veterans buried in other cemetaries and the maintenance and care of those grave sites vary. Until I got sick I always spent Memorial Day cleaning up graves not being cared for properly.

He's not buried in a national cemetary. But we grew up in a small, conservative, town where he is buried and military is ultra important there.

_____________________________

Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

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Post #: 71

RE: Got a connection? - 5/30/2013 6:21:58 AM

Hillwilliam

Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

, while you are counting the total living folks who served at any time.

No I'm not. YOU were. "So I'm reading the New York Times' Memorial Day preach piece, and it contained the sobering statistic that a mere 0.5% of the US population joins the military." is YOUR statement.

There is another possibility.

Your reading comprehension is lacking, you misread the article and your OP is false.

One more time.

Are my numbers wrong or is my math wrong?
Is the number of serving military + living vets greater than 0.5% of the population as you claimed in your OP?

As for stars on shoulders, I find it interesting that you lend automatic credence to something that is frequently politically motivated (Face it, there are a lot of people with stars on their shoulders that got there because they had connections and 'played the game' while more deserving people were passed over or forced out) and you totally disregard things written by people with multiple doctorates in the sciences if they disagree with your political beliefs.

< Message edited by Hillwilliam -- 5/30/2013 6:26:05 AM >

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 72

RE: Got a connection? - 5/30/2013 6:38:52 AM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
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And what makes you think the weight of credibility is all about the stars, rather than disdain for roosters, Hill? Or that the determinations you made in how to calculate the number are better than the ones made by the guys getting published in the NYT?

Might I suggest moving past the desire to throw rocks, and perhaps addressing the question at hand? Just a thought.

Whatever. I'm off to work. Have a lovely day.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)

Post #: 73

RE: Got a connection? - 5/30/2013 6:50:58 AM

Hillwilliam

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Joined: 8/27/2008
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I actually read the article unlike some.

Here are what I feel are 2 key statements. Please feel free to disagree.

". Even fewer of the privileged and powerful shoulder arms. In 1975, 70 percent of members of Congress had some military service; today, just 20 percent do, and only a handful of their children are in uniform. "

and

"The Congressional Research Service has documented 144 military deployments in the 40 years since adoption of the all-voluntary force in 1973, compared with 19 in the 27-year period of the Selective Service draft following World War II"Does anyone else see the correlation?

US Grant said "It is good that war is so terrible lest we should grow fond of it"

The article laments the disconnect between the general population and our military. I disagree with that assessment. 9.3% of the US population over the age of 18 has either served or is serving at this time. If you wish to disagree with that number, either show that my math or the numbers are incorrect. the poll above bears these numbers out. Virtually everyone here has served or has a family member or someone close. The problem isn't that the general population having a disconnect with the military. The problem is that our leaders have a disconnect with the military and therefore they are more likely to send our young men and women into harms way at the behest of their corporate masters in exchange for the almighty dollar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBfjU3_XOaA A little thought for the day from CCR

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)

Post #: 74

RE: Got a connection? - 5/30/2013 6:56:25 AM

Hillwilliam

Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

And what makes you think the weight of credibility is all about the stars, rather than disdain for roosters, Hill? Or that the determinations you made in how to calculate the number are better than the ones made by the guys getting published in the NYT?

Might I suggest moving past the desire to throw rocks, and perhaps addressing the question at hand? Just a thought.

Whatever. I'm off to work. Have a lovely day.

I addressed the question by showing it is faulty and invalid because the numbers are an outright fabrication. As for your question of weight of credibility being about stars, you said it, I didn't. "when it comes to how I assign credibility, stars on the shoulders trump....." remember?

I'll be sure to bring that up next time you have something less than flattering to say about Colin Powell

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 75

RE: Got a connection? - 5/30/2013 7:19:44 AM

MrBukani

Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
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I served my time in the draft for my brother to be relieved. Proud to be a soldier.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)

Post #: 76

RE: Got a connection? - 5/30/2013 7:32:08 AM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

9.3% of the US population over the age of 18 has either served or is serving at this time.

By contrast, about a third of the Norwegian population over the age of 18 has either served or is serving at this time, maybe more.

I could comment on what our military analysts have said about the demographics of the US military, but I doubt it would be well received.

quote:

The problem isn't that the general population having a disconnect with the military. The problem is that our leaders have a disconnect with the military and therefore they are more likely to send our young men and women into harms way at the behest of their corporate masters in exchange for the almighty dollar.

At least a third of Parliament here has served in the military, probably more like half.

While we're not a monarchy in the sense many Americans seem to conceive of one, I'll note that the crown prince served in the Navy, attaining the rank of Major prior to retiring. He remains, as his father, who also chose to serve, quite actively involved with the military to this day, and I believe he is formally a Navy reservist, though he's involved with all of the branches. He served normally, and it's mere chance that he hasn't seen action. The ship he served on was deployed a short while after he retired.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)

Post #: 77

RE: Got a connection? - 5/30/2013 5:47:16 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
I addressed the question by showing it is faulty and invalid because the numbers are an outright fabrication. As for your question of weight of credibility being about stars, you said it, I didn't. "when it comes to how I assign credibility, stars on the shoulders trump....." remember?

I'll be sure to bring that up next time you have something less than flattering to say about Colin Powell

Funny how you cut off the part about what they trump, Hill, but you can rest assured that if Colin Powell gets into a debate with a ginormous plaster chicken, he'll be given the weight of credibility in that.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)

Post #: 78

RE: Got a connection? - 5/30/2013 5:52:06 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
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quote:

I have a great deal of respect for vets and those serving in the military.Whenever I can,I buy diner for a table full or one guy traveling home.I always do this anonymously with the waiter`s help.

Great idea Owner I think I will do the same when I can...never thought of it.

Butch

_____________________________

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 79

RE: Got a connection? - 5/30/2013 6:22:08 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
By contrast, about a third of the Norwegian population over the age of 18 has either served or is serving at this time, maybe more.

I think that's a much healthier number for a society, Aswad.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to Aswad)

Post #: 80

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