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RE: So where do criminals and terrorists get their guns? - 4/25/2013 12:26:18 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Anyone with an actual reading ability would also see "infringed" and there is no way to reconcile the two. He specifically says regulate is ok but infringing is not. look up the definitions of the words and tell me how that doesn't mean no laws controling gun possesion.

You're inventing a false dichotomy. In the context of the Constitution, a "well-regulated" militia means one that is in good order, i.e., equipped with serviceable arms that they know how to use. The meaning of "infringe" isn't even remotely close.
K.


There you go again, Kirata. Bringing in context.


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RE: So where do criminals and terrorists get their guns? - 4/25/2013 2:29:43 PM   
muhly22222


Posts: 463
Joined: 3/25/2010
Status: offline 		Watching the video...those gun sales broke the law as is. According to the video, purchasers are required to show ID and reside in the state in which they are purchasing the gun. That didn't happen here.

I understand the support for extending background checks to include so-called "private sales" (like gun shows), but the next question is enforcement. The law is already being broken. Is passing another law going to change that?

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RE: So where do criminals and terrorists get their guns? - 4/25/2013 2:37:41 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		it will bring in a few.  you know how it works. 

President of the united states tells 330 million people....We are going this way.  12 follow.   Next day he gets on tv and says, yadda yadda blah blah we are going this way, and there is another 4.

But you know, drunken driving, they kill what?  26000 a year maybe, nationwide?  Why the fuck you want to prosecute drunks?  Doctors kill that many a month and nobody is fining or jailing them.

I understand money is why you want to defend them, but c'mon.

Sooner or later there will be longer and more complete paper trails on a gun, esquire, and them what don't have the paper chain covered get to be it from the ATF if they cant get anyone else.  You know how laws work.

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RE: So where do criminals and terrorists get their guns? - 4/25/2013 2:47:22 PM   
FunCouple5280


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quote:

Doctors kill that many a month and nobody is fining or jailing them



While some may be due to criminal neglegence, I am sure the majority of cases would not add up. Usually a patient is their own worst enemy, not the doctor...

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RE: So where do criminals and terrorists get their guns? - 4/25/2013 3:02:50 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		It is only not criminal negligence because of a strong lobby.

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RE: So where do criminals and terrorists get their guns? - 4/25/2013 3:14:35 PM   
FunCouple5280


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Doctors are human, and 20-20 hindsight I am sure you can almost always say a doctor could have done something different. They are there trying to help, and they can't know or assess ever option, and they are on a clock either before you expire or the guy in the next room does. They do not have the luxury of the armchair medical quarterback. You are probably the person that thinks they need to provide you more for less money. Yet will complain when they fuck up on hour 18 of a 24 hr shift. That is silly.

A drunk driving around ain't out to help anyone.

By your standards, we would have half the medical community, sued, broke and jailed within 3 years.....How is that good for society, I will never know

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RE: So where do criminals and terrorists get their guns? - 4/25/2013 3:27:30 PM   
mnottertail


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Yeah, fuck that line of asswipe, it don't square with fact. 

quote:


You are probably the person that thinks they need to provide you more for less money. Yet will complain when they fuck up on hour 18 of a 24 hr shift. That is silly.


You may make strawdogs and I will laugh, but I do not suffer fools gladly.

If you are comprehensionally handicapped, or decide that you are qualified to impute motives to me, based on some clairvoyance you feel you have, hit the circus, it ain't what is happening here.
.


< Message edited by mnottertail -- 4/25/2013 3:32:57 PM >

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RE: So where do criminals and terrorists get their guns? - 4/25/2013 3:32:43 PM   
LizDeluxe


Posts: 687
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Status: offline 		I say make guns illegal. It worked with illegal drugs. Cleared them right off the street. People decry the war on drugs as a waste of time, energy, money and resources... yet somehow doing the same things with guns is a good idea.

Oh, gee... I've responded with an opposing opinion. I must be a gun nutter.




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RE: So where do criminals and terrorists get their guns? - 4/25/2013 3:34:44 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		Well, the war on drugs worked as well as the war on terrorism were republican initiatives, that is chiefly the reason for their utter failure.

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RE: So where do criminals and terrorists get their guns? - 4/25/2013 3:43:03 PM   
MasterCaneman


Posts: 3842
Joined: 3/21/2013
Status: offline 		I may be throwing gasoline on the fire here, but I have it on good authority(2 active duty LE officers and a recently retired member of the Army) that a number of weapons on the streets are coming in from overseas. There are over 100 million AKs in military drag on this planet, a huge number of them in Africa and Asia. You can buy them for $50-100 in some places.

Considering the vast amount of other items successfully smuggled into the States, what's to say that these weapons aren't flowing in the same way? I've tried looking for citations on this, but I imagine that to save face, the authorities probably won't be listing this as a source for illicit arms. Just something to think about tonight.

* Found a reasonable reliable source:
http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/rough/2007/08/congo_on_the_trgen.html

< Message edited by MasterCaneman -- 4/25/2013 3:46:55 PM >

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RE: So where do criminals and terrorists get their guns? - 4/25/2013 3:52:27 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Anyone with an actual reading ability would also see "infringed" and there is no way to reconcile the two. He specifically says regulate is ok but infringing is not. look up the definitions of the words and tell me how that doesn't mean no laws controling gun possesion.

You're arguing a false dichotomy, apparently in the belief that the Framers lacked any "actual reading ability." In the context of the Constitution, a "well-regulated" militia means one that is in good order, i.e., equipped with serviceable arms and knowledgeable in their use. The meaning of "infringe" isn't even remotely close.
which is precisely the point I just made. Thanks for making it again and proving my point in one fell swoop.

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RE: So where do criminals and terrorists get their guns? - 4/25/2013 3:55:50 PM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCaneman

I may be throwing gasoline on the fire here, but I have it on good authority(2 active duty LE officers and a recently retired member of the Army) that a number of weapons on the streets are coming in from overseas. There are over 100 million AKs in military drag on this planet, a huge number of them in Africa and Asia. You can buy them for $50-100 in some places.

Considering the vast amount of other items successfully smuggled into the States, what's to say that these weapons aren't flowing in the same way? I've tried looking for citations on this, but I imagine that to save face, the authorities probably won't be listing this as a source for illicit arms. Just something to think about tonight.

* Found a reasonable reliable source:
http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/rough/2007/08/congo_on_the_trgen.html

The ATF studied this most guns seem to be getting diverted out of the legal US market either by dealers, protected from most oversight by the NRA, or by straw purchasers.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html

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RE: So where do criminals and terrorists get their guns? - 4/25/2013 5:34:48 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatShiGuy

We also know how well south korea and japan fairs with no guns.... police and military only, south korea has some of the largest crime issues int he world and gangs. Go figure, take away a gun, they use a lead pipe. Good luck.I would rather have a fighting chance without carrying a lead pipe in my pants for protection, or the whole my right to be able to defend myself if need be. As we all know , crime will happen , gun or not. Plus, how many would rather be bashed with a bat than shot? Honestly, if im going to die by a weapon, please make it a gun, save me the agony of stabbed and beaten to death.... rather a bit drawn out if you ask me. That is just basic logic to me.


Seriously, I'm not sure from that whether you're against gun control or in favour of it, TSG. Were you sending up gun-fans' arguments there, or are these views that you actually hold?

Damn - it's too late for me. Bed time!

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 4/25/2013 5:36:43 PM >

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RE: So where do criminals and terrorists get their guns? - 4/25/2013 6:04:32 PM   
erieangel


Posts: 2237
Joined: 6/19/2011
Status: offline 		Imagine you are in line at the air port. The person in front of you is denied the right to board the same plane you are about to board because he/she is on the FBI terror watch list. That person then leaves the airport and unknown to authorities or anybody else, travels to the nearest gun dealer and buys all the AR's he/she can afford along with the extended round magazines and several boxes of ammo--no questions asked.

How is this right?


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RE: So where do criminals and terrorists get their guns? - 4/25/2013 7:27:48 PM   
subrob1967


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Joined: 9/13/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

Imagine you are in line at the air port. The person in front of you is denied the right to board the same plane you are about to board because he/she is on the FBI terror watch list. That person then leaves the airport and unknown to authorities or anybody else, travels to the nearest gun dealer and buys all the AR's he/she can afford along with the extended round magazines and several boxes of ammo--no questions asked.

How is this right?




How did they pass the federal background check that ALL people have to fill out if they're on the
FBI Terrorist watch list?

Perhaps it's because they haven't actually committed a crime?

A federal form 4473 is filled out and submitted to the ATF for approval for every gun purchased from a licensed gun dealer.


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RE: So where do criminals and terrorists get their guns? - 4/25/2013 8:29:07 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

We often hear the comment(from gun-nutters) that we shouldn`t pass any laws restricting guns because "the criminals" don`t obey the law yada yada....(probably the most horrible logic ever but this comes from them).


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Tv9BeOkRTc&feature=player_embedded


(I don't know of any "gun nutters" that don't fully agree with gun controls. I also don't know of any "gun nutters" that want theirs removed from their possession solely because some asshole did something stoooopit).

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RE: So where do criminals and terrorists get their guns? - 4/25/2013 9:06:50 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

We often hear the comment(from gun-nutters) that we shouldn`t pass any laws restricting guns because "the criminals" don`t obey the law yada yada....(probably the most horrible logic ever but this comes from them).


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Tv9BeOkRTc&feature=player_embedded


(I don't know of any "gun nutters" that don't fully agree with gun controls. I also don't know of any "gun nutters" that want theirs removed from their possession solely because some asshole did something stoooopit).



Please allow me to bring you up to speed.....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqfKF_GxqGY


You`ve heard of the NRA....yes?



< Message edited by Owner59 -- 4/25/2013 9:28:00 PM >

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RE: So where do criminals and terrorists get their guns? - 4/25/2013 9:52:03 PM   
MasterCaneman


Posts: 3842
Joined: 3/21/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCaneman

I may be throwing gasoline on the fire here, but I have it on good authority(2 active duty LE officers and a recently retired member of the Army) that a number of weapons on the streets are coming in from overseas. There are over 100 million AKs in military drag on this planet, a huge number of them in Africa and Asia. You can buy them for $50-100 in some places.

Considering the vast amount of other items successfully smuggled into the States, what's to say that these weapons aren't flowing in the same way? I've tried looking for citations on this, but I imagine that to save face, the authorities probably won't be listing this as a source for illicit arms. Just something to think about tonight.

* Found a reasonable reliable source:
http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/rough/2007/08/congo_on_the_trgen.html

The ATF studied this most guns seem to be getting diverted out of the legal US market either by dealers, protected from most oversight by the NRA, or by straw purchasers.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html


I can agree with you on crooked dealers and straw purchasers, but the NRA has absolutely no "oversight" over Federal firearms activity. It's a social/political organization. It is not a government agency. Yes, I am a member, and for the life of me, I cannot figure out how it could possible assist in the transport/sale of weapons to anyone anywhere.

The ATF is a poorly managed agency that is responsible for one of the most fucked-up plans ever conceived by a government famous world-wide for screwball idea. Fast & Furious should be prosecuted in an international court, and you're talking to someone who does not like the UN. Granted, the operation was an outgrowth of 'Linebacker', which was similar in intent but not in scope, and we can blame Bush's administration for that little gem. But at least they had the brains to axe it before it become an embarrassment to the government.


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RE: So where do criminals and terrorists get their guns? - 4/25/2013 10:08:51 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Well, the war on drugs worked as well as the war on terrorism were republican initiatives, that is chiefly the reason for their utter failure.

An idea that hasn't ever worked would be just fine if Democrats ran it?
Like Fast and Furious.

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RE: So where do criminals and terrorists get their guns? - 4/25/2013 10:10:58 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		No...no "over sight"

Just one of the biggest lobbys in Washington DC.


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