quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Please read then refer to arguments made about various presidents.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Please read then refer to arguments made about various presidents.

The only item on the list that seems out of place here is "extreme patriotism is expected." The powers that be don't really seem to be stressing patriotism, as they support outsourcing and generally put the well-being of other nations ahead of America's well-being.

Another salient difference is that, under fascism, the people generally know who is in charge. There is no oligarchy, only one leader, and there's absolutely no confusion about "who's in charge" or conspiracy theories along those lines.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Please read then refer to arguments made about various presidents.

The only item on the list that seems out of place here is "extreme patriotism is expected." The powers that be don't really seem to be stressing patriotism, as they support outsourcing and generally put the well-being of other nations ahead of America's well-being.

Another salient difference is that, under fascism, the people generally know who is in charge. There is no oligarchy, only one leader, and there's absolutely no confusion about "who's in charge" or conspiracy theories along those lines.

I disagree. An extreme patriotism or nationalism is a political necessity for the introduction of fascism. For the existing laws to continue to change and for that purpose, govt. will need majority support. It will obtain that by calling everything they do patriotic as opposed to any opposition which will unpatriotic which will be required for new laws passed in the future, then...without opposition.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
Yes, but in the context of our own government, exactly what will this extreme patriotism or nationalism look like? How will they sell it to the American people?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

There's been plenty of fascist governments without majority support: that Hitler chap only got into power as part of a coalition government, to pick the most obvious example.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
Yes, but in the context of our own government, exactly what will this extreme patriotism or nationalism look like? How will they sell it to the American people?

It will look exactly like the aftermath of 9/11. If you're having trouble with jlf's not so subtle point, Obama is not turning this nation towards fascism but is leading us back from a dngerous flirtation with it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
Remember, everything Hitler did in taking Germany to its fascism was legal. That required at the very least a public acquiescence built on a nationalist movement based on the popular notion of patriotism and a new arrogance in the superiority of Germany.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

Yes, but in the context of our own government, exactly what will this extreme patriotism or nationalism look like? How will they sell it to the American people?

I can see how it might have happened if someone like Joe McCarthy became President back in the 1950s. But he was able to capitalize on the public's fear of communism along with a generalized xenophobia rooted in long-term geopolitical isolationism. But McCarthy's extremism helped propel a counter-movement against it. There were those who were "patriots" who called others "unpatriotic" for not going along with certain policies during the Cold War. The same basic tactic is still used today, but I'm not sure how many people are actually fooled or manipulated by it to the point where we could actually become a "fascist" state.

To be honest, I'm not even sure how creating fascism in America would even benefit the current ruling class and political elite. They're already in the catbird seat right now, so they have no reason to rock the boat or bring about any monumental changes to the status quo. Besides, given the nature of oligarchical, Mafia Commission type rule, I don't think they trust each other enough to hand over absolute power to a single individual, which is also a political necessity for the introduction of fascism.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

I can't necessarily argue the list above but there are some nuances that apply. Extreme patriotism is often described as nationalism extending the meaning according to many, to mean...my country rules meaning opposition is made up of traitors. That's what the right did and said about those who opposed these two recent wars and the 'war on terrorism.'

Fascism: A complete police state required for the control of every aspect of life within the country. This means business (usually the corporation) directly in bed with govt. This requires complete political (police) control over the people, requires laws that the courts use to maintain such control. Everything Hitler did...was 'legal.'

Communism is really an economic system the properties of which requires a form of fascism, i.e., state control not only of ownership but enough political control over the citizenry to qualify as a form of fascism.

As for socialism. There has never been in history any govt. that has owned all of the means of production without that govt. being a communist or or fascist system. Even in a fascist system there remains some private ownership of business, one just likely couldn't tell the difference from the outside. Socialism is not the opposite of any form of govt. and only requires a majority govt. ownership of the means of production. Or.....

Socialism for that matter could be the opposite of ALL existing and historical forms of government. There are parts of various economies that have been owned by govt. but most often govt. only owns a part of production rather than an entire business or industry. That means a country could easily have a democratic socialism.

Yes, the US IS going to be a fascist state sometime in the future and is on the way already. There is no megalomaniac stirring up history into a warring hatred as Hitler. This is a slow gradual process. It goes from small nuisance violations of your constitutional rights to eventual wholesale societal change in the very perception of your rights.

It won't be that you are no longer presumed innocent but that the citizenry will be asked, 'Well if you have nothing to hide, or you are obeying the laws...then...?' Instead of the state asking the courts if they have probable cause. Which is how all govt. control begins. The courts are already playing their part in throwing out constitutional challenges to searches and arrests.

Then soon after, all 'suspects' will be taken in and interrogated even with a presumption of innocence that without your cooperation morphs into a presumption of guilt.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

So my tally for Obama:

[ X ] Protects corporate interests
[ ] Extreme patriotism is expected
[ X ] Supports extreme wealth inequality
[ ] Promotes religion within government.
[ X ] Allows corporate controlled mass media
[ X ] Limits middleclass labor power
[ X ] Motivates citizens to support worldwide military...

In other words, not to shabby as our own little fascist. There's some other things not listed that I'd be interested in looking at also like police powers, violence of the police towards the citizenry, and the surveillance powers of the state. But yeah... this list pretty much sums up why Obama (or likely any democrat or republican) will never get my vote again.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

So my tally for Obama:

[ X ] Protects corporate interests
[ ] Extreme patriotism is expected
[ X ] Supports extreme wealth inequality
[ ] Promotes religion within government.
[ X ] Allows corporate controlled mass media
[ X ] Limits middleclass labor power
[ X ] Motivates citizens to support worldwide military...

In other words, not to shabby as our own little fascist. There's some other things not listed that I'd be interested in looking at also like police powers, violence of the police towards the citizenry, and the surveillance powers of the state. But yeah... this list pretty much sums up why Obama (or likely any democrat or republican) will never get my vote again.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Raising taxes on the wealthy and trying to raise them even higher is supporting wealth inequality?
Expanding union rights is actually everelty restricting unions?

quote:

Ending 2 foreign wars is a way to build support for excessive worldwide military occupation?
Quibble with what Obama has done but at least get the facts straight when you do.

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
Yes, but in the context of our own government, exactly what will this extreme patriotism or nationalism look like? How will they sell it to the American people?

It will look exactly like the aftermath of 9/11. If you're having trouble with jlf's not so subtle point, Obama is not turning this nation towards fascism but is leading us back from a dngerous flirtation with it.