RE: North Carolina wants to Declare Official State Religion Under New Bill

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Lucylastic -> RE: North Carolina wants to Declare Official State Religion Under New Bill (4/3/2013 7:13:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic The legislation was filed in response to a lawsuit to stop county commissioners in Rowan County from opening meetings with a Christian prayer, wral.com reported. Don't let that minor detail of reality stop you from slandering the whole state, sweetie. Such inconvenience has never stopped bigots before, nor will it likely ever. Im sorry dearie......That wasnt my opinion, that was in the article.... do you know the difference??? take it up with wral.com ...

Edwynn -> RE: North Carolina wants to Declare Official State Religion Under New Bill (4/3/2013 7:19:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers So how soon before they try to re-invoke slavery ? How soon before we see police beating confessions, ALL minorities denied the vote ? This isn't just about establishing religion. This is about tearing up the bill of rights and the rest of the amends. A sort of constitutional secession. So how soon will the North East and the Mid West in the US stop stuffing the "minorities" into ghettos? How soon will they recognize that they are racists to the core? Yeah, that's what I thought.

Edwynn -> RE: North Carolina wants to Declare Official State Religion Under New Bill (4/3/2013 7:23:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic The legislation was filed in response to a lawsuit to stop county commissioners in Rowan County from opening meetings with a Christian prayer, wral.com reported. Don't let that minor detail of reality stop you from slandering the whole state, sweetie. Such inconvenience has never stopped bigots before, nor will it likely ever. Im sorry dearie......That wasnt my opinion, that was in the article.... do you know the difference??? take it up with wral.com ... The instigation of a thread to their effort would tell most readers that you took that ball and ran with it.

Lucylastic -> RE: North Carolina wants to Declare Official State Religion Under New Bill (4/3/2013 7:30:24 PM)
then those readers would be wrong now wouldnt they. Im not aware of any rule anywhere that states that every part of a news article had to be checked for validity before posting as a thread????? Would you show me * in your infinite wisdom* said rule or even inference? The fact that those pols want to declare a state religion, was the point... not what it was in response to. Write the editor, or someone who gives a shit what you believe I should verify

Edwynn -> RE: North Carolina wants to Declare Official State Religion Under New Bill (4/3/2013 7:40:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280 And this is why NC will flip to a Blue state in the near future. The voters have been wavering swing for awhile. With this totalitarian religious crap, it will flip the electorate for good. sure they believe being armed fights tyranny, maybe the people will use them ov NC has voted for D governors more often than R governors in this generation, last election aside. NC was an electoral vote for Obama the first time around, 1% shy of the mark in the latest. Jesse Helms was repeatedly elected by an incessant flood of money from residents from 'blue' states Bubba Democrats are all over the place in NC.

cordeliasub -> RE: North Carolina wants to Declare Official State Religion Under New Bill (4/3/2013 7:41:43 PM)
a couple of questions: 1. Have these people READ the Constitution? 2. Are they a part of the United states of America? 3. It says a lawsuit to prohibit Christian prayer....is it Christian prayer or all prayer? Cause that would make a difference to me in how I felt about the lawsuit 4. WHY do southern people keep doing things that make all of us southerners look like idiots?????

Edwynn -> RE: North Carolina wants to Declare Official State Religion Under New Bill (4/3/2013 7:54:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic then those readers would be wrong now wouldnt they. Im not aware of any rule anywhere that states that every part of a news article had to be checked for validity before posting as a thread????? Would you show me * in your infinite wisdom* said rule or even inference? The fact that those pols want to declare a state religion, was the point... not what it was in response to. Write the editor, or someone who gives a shit what you believe I should verify I never questioned the validity of your particular assertion, nor that of those who wrote the article. Perhaps I'm being too 'sensitive' here, but NC is the best state I've lived in, even knowing there are better places to inhabit. The people of the NE or MW are the most intolerable on earth, and I cannot thank the gods enough for that avoidance in my upbringing. You are right to call out the religionists, and religionism wherever it may pop up. But look again at the title of the OP.

FrostedFlake -> RE: North Carolina wants to Declare Official State Religion Under New Bill (4/3/2013 9:55:35 PM)
quote: Amendment XIV Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States... and it goes on. My work here is done.

Powergamz1 -> RE: North Carolina wants to Declare Official State Religion Under New Bill (4/4/2013 8:58:26 AM)
On the 10th, we don't simply ignore it... Where in the Constitution does the authority to create a police department appear? It doesn't, they didn't exist at that time, and are among those things reserved to the states. Thanks to the 'states rights' extremists though, the 10th does have a pretty shabby reputation. quote: ORIGINAL: muhly22222 quote: The bill says the First Amendment only applies to the federal government and does not stop state governments, local governments and school districts from adopting measures that defy the Constitution. The legislation also says that the Tenth Amendment, which says powers not reserved for the federal government belong to the states, prohibits court rulings that would seek to apply the First Amendment to state and local officials. This is true. Provided that we're in 1865. Oh, it's 2013? The 14th Amendment applied most of the provisions in the Bill of Rights to the states (the only ones that haven't been are the quartering of soldiers, the grand jury requirement, and the right to a jury in a civil trial). Additionally, there's a very old Supreme Court case that established the principle of judicial review of state laws and court decisions (when they fell within the federal purview). I believe it's Martin v. Hunter's Lessee, and it's a case that came out of Virginia. A very important case, too...can you imagine what the United States would look like if each state was free to disregard whichever laws it felt like? My first instinct is to say...not very united. And the 10th Amendment? Under current law, it's utterly meaningless. I do have some problem with that...it's a Constitutional Amendment, for fuck's sake. We shouldn't simply ignore it. There are a number of powers that are nowhere in the Constitution that should be left to the individual states to take the solution that they feel best fits their needs (regulating health care, for one), and the state can deal with the consequences of their decisions in those areas. As for this proposal...without knowing very much about North Carolina politics, I'd imagine that it was just done for posturing. Those 9 legislators can go home in 2014 or 2016 (or whenever their next election is) and tell their constituents "We tried. The atheists stopped us from protecting your religious rights." And they'll probably be re-elected. I know that if my local state representative tried something like that, they'd get re-elected (though not with my vote).

Powergamz1 -> RE: North Carolina wants to Declare Official State Religion Under New Bill (4/4/2013 9:05:39 AM)
When the elected official government of the state introduces official documentation to accomplish something, it is standard grammar to use the name of the state followed by a verb. It is understood as matter of common sense that not every single person in the state is doing (or even supporting) the action. quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic then those readers would be wrong now wouldnt they. Im not aware of any rule anywhere that states that every part of a news article had to be checked for validity before posting as a thread????? Would you show me * in your infinite wisdom* said rule or even inference? The fact that those pols want to declare a state religion, was the point... not what it was in response to. Write the editor, or someone who gives a shit what you believe I should verify I never questioned the validity of your particular assertion, nor that of those who wrote the article. Perhaps I'm being too 'sensitive' here, but NC is the best state I've lived in, even knowing there are better places to inhabit. The people of the NE or MW are the most intolerable on earth, and I cannot thank the gods enough for that avoidance in my upbringing. You are right to call out the religionists, and religionism wherever it may pop up. But look again at the title of the OP.

tomguy -> RE: North Carolina wants to Declare Official State Religion Under New Bill (4/4/2013 11:59:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail LOL, the fuckin teabaggers are inept and hilarious at the same instant. Thats why we are never gonna let these people run this country. It's kind of a moot point in "letting" anyone do anything. When people get tired of disagreeing with you, they will take their side of the military and leave. Nothing you can do to stop them...

FunCouple5280 -> RE: North Carolina wants to Declare Official State Religion Under New Bill (4/4/2013 3:38:57 PM)
you think one could pull that off? Doubtful

muhly22222 -> RE: North Carolina wants to Declare Official State Religion Under New Bill (4/4/2013 3:46:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 On the 10th, we don't simply ignore it... Where in the Constitution does the authority to create a police department appear? It doesn't, they didn't exist at that time, and are among those things reserved to the states. Thanks to the 'states rights' extremists though, the 10th does have a pretty shabby reputation. quote: ORIGINAL: muhly22222 quote: The bill says the First Amendment only applies to the federal government and does not stop state governments, local governments and school districts from adopting measures that defy the Constitution. The legislation also says that the Tenth Amendment, which says powers not reserved for the federal government belong to the states, prohibits court rulings that would seek to apply the First Amendment to state and local officials. This is true. Provided that we're in 1865. Oh, it's 2013? The 14th Amendment applied most of the provisions in the Bill of Rights to the states (the only ones that haven't been are the quartering of soldiers, the grand jury requirement, and the right to a jury in a civil trial). Additionally, there's a very old Supreme Court case that established the principle of judicial review of state laws and court decisions (when they fell within the federal purview). I believe it's Martin v. Hunter's Lessee, and it's a case that came out of Virginia. A very important case, too...can you imagine what the United States would look like if each state was free to disregard whichever laws it felt like? My first instinct is to say...not very united. And the 10th Amendment? Under current law, it's utterly meaningless. I do have some problem with that...it's a Constitutional Amendment, for fuck's sake. We shouldn't simply ignore it. There are a number of powers that are nowhere in the Constitution that should be left to the individual states to take the solution that they feel best fits their needs (regulating health care, for one), and the state can deal with the consequences of their decisions in those areas. As for this proposal...without knowing very much about North Carolina politics, I'd imagine that it was just done for posturing. Those 9 legislators can go home in 2014 or 2016 (or whenever their next election is) and tell their constituents "We tried. The atheists stopped us from protecting your religious rights." And they'll probably be re-elected. I know that if my local state representative tried something like that, they'd get re-elected (though not with my vote). Actually, the authority to open a police department comes from the police powers inherent in government - the power to take actions to protect the health, safety, welfare, and morals of the citizens. Everything the federal government does that seems like it would be an excellent candidate for the 10th Amendment gets upheld under the taxing and spending clauses or the commerce clause. It's a dead letter.

LizDeluxe -> RE: North Carolina wants to Declare Official State Religion Under New Bill (4/4/2013 5:37:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic The bill says the First Amendment only applies to the federal government and does not stop state governments, local governments and school districts from adopting measures that defy the Constitution. The legislation also says that the Tenth Amendment, which says powers not reserved for the federal government belong to the states, prohibits court rulings that would seek to apply the First Amendment to state and local officials. The first amendment does clearly say "Congress" - it doesn't mention the states. The tenth amendment is pretty straight forward. While I strongly disagree with this legislation and feel it defies the spirit of the first amendment it does not appear to violate it. Whether that holds up in court remains to be seen. I find it ironic that the first amendment would bar state and local governments from violating it while the second amendment is not afforded the same protections. If you are going to disallow this new law in NC you must also declare all of the gun control laws (like the new one in Connecticut) invalid, as well... unless double standard is one of your fetishes.

Lucylastic -> RE: North Carolina wants to Declare Official State Religion Under New Bill (4/4/2013 6:06:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LizDeluxe quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic The bill says the First Amendment only applies to the federal government and does not stop state governments, local governments and school districts from adopting measures that defy the Constitution. The legislation also says that the Tenth Amendment, which says powers not reserved for the federal government belong to the states, prohibits court rulings that would seek to apply the First Amendment to state and local officials. The first amendment does clearly say "Congress" - it doesn't mention the states. The tenth amendment is pretty straight forward. While I strongly disagree with this legislation and feel it defies the spirit of the first amendment it does not appear to violate it. Whether that holds up in court remains to be seen. I find it ironic that the first amendment would bar state and local governments from violating it while the second amendment is not afforded the same protections. If you are going to disallow this new law in NC you must also declare all of the gun control laws (like the new one in Connecticut) invalid, as well... unless double standard is one of your fetishes. Im sorry dearie......That wasnt my opinion, that was in the article.... do you know the difference???

tazzygirl -> RE: North Carolina wants to Declare Official State Religion Under New Bill (4/4/2013 6:48:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn quote: ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280 And this is why NC will flip to a Blue state in the near future. The voters have been wavering swing for awhile. With this totalitarian religious crap, it will flip the electorate for good. sure they believe being armed fights tyranny, maybe the people will use them ov NC has voted for D governors more often than R governors in this generation, last election aside. NC was an electoral vote for Obama the first time around, 1% shy of the mark in the latest. Jesse Helms was repeatedly elected by an incessant flood of money from residents from 'blue' states Bubba Democrats are all over the place in NC. Sure was funny seeing Helms' home draped with a huge condom. As for why he was repeatedly re-elected.... moral majority. The bible thumpers from all over the south kept him in office.

njlauren -> RE: North Carolina wants to Declare Official State Religion Under New Bill (4/4/2013 7:21:58 PM)
Until passage of the 14th amendment, the constitution and the bill of rights did not apply to the states. With passage of the 14th amendment the constitution and the bill of rights extended to the states, and that includes all the amendments. The fact that the 1st says congress is meaningless, when you amend the constitution you change it. The original constitution did not allow women to vote, the 19th amendment gave them that right. With the 14th amendment, the wording of the 1st doesn't matter at all, the founders might have meant it to mean only the federal government, but the passage of the 14th superceded that. Part of the reason the states rights types down south claim that still is because they claim the 14th amendment was illegal, since it was passed by carpetbagger legislatures (as they say, winner takes the spoils, sorry, Charlie, your side lost). As far as the 2nd amendment goes it does apply to the states, I wish the gun lobby would actually pick up a book and read, instead of spouting nonsense. The 2nd amendment says people have the right to bear arms, but it does not say that right is unencumbered, all rights have limits to them. Connecticut can pass gun control laws because the 2nd amendment only states you cannot totally ban people owning weapons, but it doesn't say you have the right to any weapons you want. You cannot buy automatic weapons without a special license, that is difficult to get. You cannot buy an RPG, you cannot buy a bazooka, because those are considered too dangerous for civilians to own. States can and do decide if guns need to be registered, they can decide what kind of guns can be bought and where, and that has been upheld by the Supreme Court going back hundreds of years. As long as the state doesn't place an outright ban on any gun ownership, they otherwise have the right to decide other issues around guns, including carry permits.

Edwynn -> RE: North Carolina wants to Declare Official State Religion Under New Bill (4/4/2013 7:43:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn quote: ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280 And this is why NC will flip to a Blue state in the near future. The voters have been wavering swing for awhile. With this totalitarian religious crap, it will flip the electorate for good. sure they believe being armed fights tyranny, maybe the people will use them ov NC has voted for D governors more often than R governors in this generation, last election aside. NC was an electoral vote for Obama the first time around, 1% shy of the mark in the latest. Jesse Helms was repeatedly elected by an incessant flood of money from residents from 'blue' states Bubba Democrats are all over the place in NC. Sure was funny seeing Helms' home draped with a huge condom. As for why he was repeatedly re-elected.... moral majority. The bible thumpers from all over the south kept him in office. A flood of money from residents of 'blue' states kept Helms in office, as did those funds accomplish the task in a number of other states. Three of the four (Helms) elections were close to the wire, the slim margin being accomplished by a number of millionaires from NY state and Cali. NY state is the biggest whore of all in this regard, but go ahead and pick on NC if you feel the need to demonstrate ignorance. I can relate that a large number of North Carolinians utterly despised Helms from the start, but that fact wouldn't suit the convenient assumptions here, would it?

Kirata -> RE: North Carolina wants to Declare Official State Religion Under New Bill (4/4/2013 7:47:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: njlauren As long as the state doesn't place an outright ban on any gun ownership... I don't think that's quite true. There has to be a compelling need to justify abrogating a Constitutionally guaranteed right. Shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater offers a good example. Demonstrating a compelling need to limit magazine capacities to 10 rounds, or to deny citizens the right to own a class of rifles that are no different from any other rifle of the same type except in appearance, seems a harder row to hoe. Not to say that doing so might be found Constitutional anyway, of course. The courts have already decided that freedom of "speech" includes all kinds of crap that ain't "speech". Whether it's sane is another matter. K.

Edwynn -> RE: North Carolina wants to Declare Official State Religion Under New Bill (4/4/2013 7:57:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 When the elected official government of the state introduces official documentation to accomplish something, it is standard grammar to use the name of the state followed by a verb. By politicos, yes. By those who posses a modicum of understanding of the simplest logic, no. BTW, it was not THE "elected government official" of that state, but a few assembly persons. Pay attention. quote: It is understood as matter of common sense that not every single person in the state is doing (or even supporting) the action. You ARE kidding, right? This "red state" "blue state" thing has it that the entire state is judged and assigned contumely and subject to 'righteous indignation!,' as demonstrated here and innumerable other such like demonstrations and foot stomping.

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