RE: Freedom in the 50 States

RE: Freedom in the 50 States (Full Version)

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DaNewAgeViking -> RE: Freedom in the 50 States (3/30/2013 1:13:06 PM)
Well: it would seem that the chart above can actually serve a useful purpose of showing which states are the 'most free' of Radical influence. In that, they served a good purpose, although I'm sure they didn't intend to. [sm=doh.gif]

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Freedom in the 50 States (3/30/2013 1:22:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 FR: There are a lot of "freedom lovers".......... who want be free to pollute my air........ That,is not freedom. And this is one example of my argument!! [:)] For you, it's not a freedom - it's a fucking ass-ache and an infringement of your freedoms. For those 'freedom lovers' on the other side of the fence, for you to stop their freedoms would infringe on theirs. Touché!! Stalemate. Neither is right or wrong - just a different PoV of what a right or freedom is.

Kirata -> RE: Freedom in the 50 States (3/30/2013 1:31:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 There are a lot of "freedom lovers".......... who want be free to pollute my air........ That,is not freedom. Well since the premise here is that persons should be free to do what they want as long as it doesn't injure another, I think it would be hard to work polluting the planet into that point of view. But hey, that's okay. I understand. Letting your intelligence get the upper hand would spoil your fun. K.

Kirata -> RE: Freedom in the 50 States (3/30/2013 1:32:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 Neither is right or wrong - just a different PoV of what a right or freedom is. Cute, but no cigar. See previous. K.

Owner59 -> RE: Freedom in the 50 States (3/30/2013 1:42:51 PM)
This is some of the most rediculous,subjective bull shit, you`ve ever posted......

MrRodgers -> RE: Freedom in the 50 States (3/30/2013 1:54:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers The problem arises when one can justifiably reason that the freedoms they seek are that of making the most money, paying the lowest wages, providing the fewest benefits and paying the lowest taxes. Fuck the environment, fuck you and fuck society at large, we are talking freedom baby. Okay, that's a start. Or at least maybe it is. Which of their criteria would you cite in support of these claims? K. They want in a general sense the freedom to pollute, at least no less or even more than they are, the freedom to pay less than minimum wage, the freedom from any collective bargaining or the effects of same, i.e., the freedom to conduct business to maximize profits without concern for any of society's concern. They want the freedom to blow people off oil platforms and bury then in coal mines. All other issues are mainly used as a means to gather emotional support in order to simply help finance the overall influence of their business goals.

erieangel -> RE: Freedom in the 50 States (3/30/2013 2:01:45 PM)
I see that PA is a dark blue, though not the darkest blue. The Koch brothers happen to have a coal processing plant in my city. A small one to be sure, but it has been cited several times in the past few years for EPA violations. Just 2 years ago a air filtration system blew up and sent black smoke through all of the lake side area of Erie. That's all of our downtown, people!! The Perry Monument, The Flagship Niagara, Hotels were covered in soot; the public library, the art museum; the beaches. Birds and fishes died. Everything in the city was black for miles. Some old timers said the air quality was worst than when Hammermill Paper, GE Locomotive and Lord Manufacturing along with all the steel mills were all running at full capacity in the 60s before the EPA regulations were put into place. And the Koch brothers are fighting the fine they got for that "accident". They are fighting the fines they accumulated over the years at the Erie site that amount to millions of dollars. So of course PA would be dark blue. The Koch brothers have not been left to pollute this state and Lake Erie without consequence, even though they have yet to pay their fines. Their legal fees in fighting those fines are mounting. But I guess, for them, it is the "principle" of the matter. They don't care how much they spend in legal fees so long as they get away with polluting and don't have to pay a fine for doing so... Oh and I keep seeing that the plant is hiring. But the ad never states that it is the Koch Plant. Their reputation here is just that bad; they wouldn't get a single application if people knew what they were applying for.

erieangel -> RE: Freedom in the 50 States (3/30/2013 2:06:10 PM)
And wait a minute: How can ND rake 10th with its socialist bank???

DomKen -> RE: Freedom in the 50 States (3/30/2013 2:29:16 PM)
FR note that the koch brothers lackeys definition of freedom does not include anything related to women's reproductive rights, actually no gender rights of any kind are considered, not just abortion. Nor does it include anything about gay rights except for marriage equality. IOW this is right wing bullshit intended to do nothing but try and support lies that will be told on Faux News and the rest of the right wing hate media.

Kirata -> RE: Freedom in the 50 States (3/30/2013 2:55:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata Which of their criteria would you cite in support of these claims? They want in a general sense the freedom to pollute, at least no less or even more than they are, the freedom to pay less than minimum wage, the freedom from any collective bargaining or the effects of same, i.e., the freedom to conduct business to maximize profits without concern for any of society's concern. They want the freedom to blow people off oil platforms and bury then in coal mines. All other issues are mainly used as a means to gather emotional support in order to simply help finance the overall influence of their business goals. Maybe you didn't understand the question. Let's try again. Ready? Which of their criteria would you cite in support of these claims? K.

Kirata -> RE: Freedom in the 50 States (3/30/2013 3:03:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen note that the koch brothers lackeys definition of freedom does not include anything related to women's reproductive rights, actually no gender rights of any kind are considered, not just abortion. Nor does it include anything about gay rights except for marriage equality. Since a definition of individual freedom does not require enumerating every possible circumstance and specifying every race, sex, gender, religion, ethnicity, or whatever the fuck else, this particular magic trick works better when you have a pretty assistant to provide a distraction. (I apologize for the big words.) K.

tweakabelle -> RE: Freedom in the 50 States (3/30/2013 3:13:47 PM)
It is blatantly absurd to suggest that the authors and/or financiers of a blatantly political tool - this self styled Index of Freedom - are irrelevant when considering the report's findings. According to wiki: " The Mercatus Center was founded by Rich Fink as the Center for the Study of Market Processes at Rutgers University. After the Koch family provided more than thirty million dollars[2] to George Mason University, the Center moved to George Mason in the mid-1980s before assuming its current name in 1999.[2] The Mercatus Center is a 501(c)3 non-profit and does not receive support from George Mason University or any federal, state or local government, but rather is entirely funded through donations, including some from companies like Koch Industries[3] and ExxonMobil,[4] individual donors and foundations. As of 2011, the Center shows that 58% of its funding comes from foundations, 40% from individuals, and 2% from businesses.[1] Stated mission The organization describes itself as "the world’s premier university source for market-oriented ideas" that aims to bridge "the gap between academic ideas and real-world problems."[2] By advancing knowledge about how markets can work to improve lives and individual freedoms, by training graduate students, conducting research, and applying economic principles, they hope to offer solutions to society's most pressing problems. Washington Post columnist Al Kamen has described Mercatus as a "staunchly anti-regulatory center funded largely by Koch Industries Inc."[3] Rob Stein, the Democratic strategist, has called it "ground zero for deregulation policy in Washington.”[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercatus_Center Clearly Mercatus has a far Right ideological agenda. It is reasonable to expect that agenda and ideological bias will be reflected in Mercatus' studies and publications. It is at best ingenuous and at worst, deliberately misleading to argue that these biases and idelogical agenda should not be considered when assessing Mercatus' studies and publications.

Kirata -> RE: Freedom in the 50 States (3/30/2013 3:23:46 PM)
Our mission is to generate knowledge and understanding of the institutions that affect the freedom to prosper and to find sustainable solutions that overcome the barriers preventing individuals from living free, prosperous, and peaceful lives. ~Mercatus Center: About quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle Clearly Mercatus has a far Right ideological agenda. Oh yes, clearly. quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle It is blatantly absurd to suggest that the authors and/or financiers of a blatantly political tool - this self styled Index of Freedom - are irrelevant when considering the report's findings. The fantasy of a clutch of zombies shuffling around doing their evil master's bidding is paranoid enough to raise eyebrows at an Intake interview. Even the wildest right-wing fanatics credit the staffs of Soros-funded organizations with being assholes in their own right. K.

BitaTruble -> RE: Freedom in the 50 States (3/30/2013 3:35:16 PM)
quote: This project develops an index of economic and personal freedom in the American states. In my opinion, due to the subjective weight of the criteria, they have failed in their purpose. Two of the criteria, tax and tort, make up over 40% of the overall 'freedom' index while civil liberties (which in a discussion of 'personal freedom' would seem to deserve more weight) comes in at just .6%. "Calculating the “freedom value” of each variable was a Herculean endeavor, to be perfectly honest, but we did it because we wanted to make the investment in a dramatic improvement to the study’s methodology. For some variables, precious little scholarly investigation revealed the information we wanted, and our calculations end up being more like “guesstimates” than precise estimates." .. to me that paragraphs translates to "We did our best to make sure all was factual but when we couldn't get precise, we guessed and set the weight of a particular variable based on that guess." I think that's a fair assessment of that particular paragraph. I can make a guess just as well and 'guess' that Marriage is more important than Tort laws to 'most' people and weigh that personal freedom much higher than the Tort stuff and Tort got 11%! So, again, subjective. I think it serves the purpose the authors intended for the audience whom they want to capture or retain. Other than that, it doesn't seem to be of much use for those who may weigh the variables in a different manner as one can see when clicking on the 'user' generated portion of the site.

Charles6682 -> RE: Freedom in the 50 States (3/30/2013 3:43:15 PM)
I personally think states like New York and California are far more "free" than states like Florida and Texas.

tweakabelle -> RE: Freedom in the 50 States (3/30/2013 3:43:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 This is some of the most rediculous,subjective bull shit, you`ve ever posted...... Your statement could be disputed Owner. Personally I tend to think that this thread's effort doesn't quite reach the heights of absurdity Kirata's recent claim that genocide against white South Africans is being carried out now, and that this genocide has been carried on since the ending of apartheid there. That post was accompanied by a lurid image featuring a brutal looking black, terrified white virgin girls, copious amounts of blood and IIRC, strategically located machetes, designed to make us pine for the good old days of apartheid when everyone knew their place. While I am open to persuasion, I'm inclined to think that the image makes the difference and gets that post over the line. I will concede that it's a close thing. When it cones to sheer aburdity, there's not much to separate the claims in Kirata's two posts.

DomKen -> RE: Freedom in the 50 States (3/30/2013 4:02:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen note that the koch brothers lackeys definition of freedom does not include anything related to women's reproductive rights, actually no gender rights of any kind are considered, not just abortion. Nor does it include anything about gay rights except for marriage equality. Since a definition of individual freedom does not require enumerating every possible circumstance and specifying every race, sex, gender, religion, ethnicity, or whatever the fuck else, this particular magic trick works better when you have a pretty assistant to provide a distraction. (I apologize for the big words.) K. Bullshit. The fact is equal treatment of the genders affects a lot more people a lot more of the time than most of the "freedoms" measured in this "study." For instance a bunch of tobacco related stuff is afforded 4% of the rating while freedom from discrimination based on gender or sexuality is 0% of the rating. How much more ridiculous could this be?

Charles6682 -> RE: Freedom in the 50 States (3/30/2013 4:17:54 PM)
This is clearly a biased study based on flawed "facts".I consider things like personal freedom and human rights laws to be more important than economic freedom.

Kirata -> RE: Freedom in the 50 States (3/30/2013 4:40:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle Personally I tend to think that this thread's effort doesn't quite reach the heights of absurdity Kirata's recent claim that genocide against white South Africans is being carried out now, and that this genocide has been carried on since the ending of apartheid there. [image]http://c481901.r1.cf2.rackcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/300x208.gif[/image] Personally, I think you need to get out more. They managed to get the attention of GenocideWatch. At one point the situation had reached Stage 6. It has now been downgraded to Stage 5, no thanks to Jacob Zuma, who, by the way, is the fellow your post refers to as "the brutal looking black." At least you got that right. Acting Judge of the South Gauteng High Court, Leon Halgryn declared that the song is hate speech, and it is unconstitutional to either utter or sing “dubul’ibhunu” (“shoot the Boer.”) He issued an injunction against Malema, ordering him to no longer sing the song. The phrase is now considered hate speech. Julius Malema was shortly thereafter removed as President of the ANC Youth League, and ejected from the ANC. However, Malema’s followers have defied the judgment and continue to sing the song... President Jacob Zuma sang “Shoot the Boer” at the ANC Centenary Celebration event in January of 2012. K.

Kirata -> RE: Freedom in the 50 States (3/30/2013 4:53:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen freedom from discrimination based on gender or sexuality is 0% of the rating. You're just making shit up as usual. Marriage and civil-union laws and arrests for victimless crimes are each worth 16.2 percent of personal freedom... Marriage and civil-union laws are coded equally with arrests for victimless crimes because of the high salience of the issue. State attempts to enhance the ability of same-sex partners to make voluntary contracts that affect life or death decisions unequivocally enhance individual liberty. (One could argue that states should get the government out of marriage licensing altogether and offer streamlined "life-partnership contracts" to all sorts of families and households, not just heterosexual and homosexual two-partner relationships.) K.

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