David Frum: "Straight marriage is the real issue"

David Frum: "Straight marriage is the real issue" (Full Version)

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dcnovice -> David Frum: "Straight marriage is the real issue" (3/25/2013 9:39:06 PM)
quote: Washington (CNN) -- The Supreme Court will hear arguments this week in two same-sex marriage cases. Whatever the justices do, the outcome seems foreordained. When 80% of Americans under 30 agree about something, that something will happen -- it's only a matter of time. But while straight young Americans support marriage for gays, increasingly they opt against marriage for themselves. Nearly half of American children, 48%, are now born to unmarried women. Among women without college degrees, and of all races, unwed motherhood has become the norm. This is the crisis of the American family. Whether same-sex marriage proceeds fast or slow, whether it extends to all 50 states or stops with the current nine plus the District of Columbia, the crisis will be the same. Children born to single parents face much longer odds in life than children born to married parents. (A new study by ThirdWay.org suggests that the harms are especially intense for boys, less so for girls.) "Odds" are not rules, of course. There are always exceptions. On average, however, children born to married mothers and fathers are more likely to finish college, more likely to avoid prison and more likely to form marriages themselves than children born to single parents. And precisely because the harms of single parenthood tend to be self-replicating, the breakdown of marriage threatens to harden into a caste divide, with some families launched into cycles of downward mobility because of the unstable relationships of parents or grandparents or great-grandparents. For 20 years, Americans have fiercely debated whether gays -- who constitute maybe 3% of the population -- should be allowed to marry each other. Meanwhile, Americans have given short shrift to what is happening to the 97% of the population that is allowed to marry, but increasingly opts not to do so. Complete essay at CNN Frum raises some interesting points, from which arise any number of questions: (a) Is marriage actually, as we often hear, in crisis? If so, how did it get there? And what are the solutions? (b) If defending/preserving marriage truly is the goal for NOM et al., why not, as Frum suggests, focus on the straight folks who make up 97% of the population?

njlauren -> RE: David Frum: "Straight marriage is the real issue" (3/25/2013 10:04:19 PM)
The answer to the question is that statistics are like the whore with the perfect makeup, they look very tempting when viewed from 50 feet away, at 10 they look like uncle charlie in a dress (or maybe it is uncle charlie in a dress...). The problem with numbers they give is they are just numbers. For example, that 48% of kids are being born out of wedlock, and that sounds horrible (and it is, in one sense), but it makes it sound like you go anywhere, and you will see half the kids born into poverty violence, etc.and it leaves out that not all kids born to single parents are born into poverty, or necessarily will be screwed up..... Okay, so how to make sense of this: -It is skewed by the rate of single moms/teen moms, in certain groups. Among blacks, it is about 80% born to unwed mothers, many of them poor, uneducated and so forth, and that is going to skew it. -Among whites, I think the number is about 30% (not great, but still). But then, we have to ask, is a kid born to a single parent necessarily a bad thing..well, not necessarily. While it probably doesn't represent a huge number, you have middle class, upper middle class and well off woman who decide they want to have a kid, though not married, they use sperm donors or have it by a boyfriend by choice, they have the means to raise the kids, but don't get married..and many of these kids do just fine..... Then, too, statistically, because they cannot marry, kids born to gays are classified as being born to single mothers. I believe they also classify babies born to a surrogate mom that way, which is idiotic (and also is not a big number, granted). I think the real issue is a lot of the kids born out of wedlock are born to poor women, and that is the problem, whatever the real number is. In countries like Sweden, a lot of the babies are born out of wedlock, but it is no big deal, because for one, it is because a lot of people don't formally marry but still have a family, and among the ones who are single parents, Sweden is a relatively well off, educated country, so the single moms can take care of them, plus they enjoy support services like childcare we don't have in the US. Don't get me wrong, it is a serious problem, it is one of the major causes of urban and rural poverty, and it leads to a cycle of this happening over and over again, but it has been going on a long time (Pat Moynihan wrote about it in the black community more then 50 years ago). In a nutshell, it is a serious problem where kids are being born to single, poor mothers, and it does need to be dealt with.... And yeah, it is ironic, when we hear that denying gays the right to marry is going to save marriage. The black preachers who are so opposed to same sex marriage might be better served to address the ills in their own community, with marriage and childbirth; the preachers down south ranting and raving about gay marriage being armegeddon, might be better served to try and lower the divorce, adultery and spousal abuse figures in their own communities, since the bible belt is generally higher in these things them some of the 'liberal' states. Whether gays are 3%, 5%, or 10%, the fact is, allowing them to marry has zero to do with straight marriages, zero to do with out of wedlock births, and is unlikely to cause any kind of problems, other then in the religious droolers empty brain pans. In actuality, they aren't trying to deny gays the right to marry per se, it has nothing to do with God striking us down, the real reason they fight it is because they see this as government saying gays are the same as straights, and they don't want that, they want to use the government to make gays second class citizens,deny them rights, to 'keep them in their place'..what they really fear is what has happened, people see same sex marriage in other states, scratch their heads and say "so? What's the big fuss? I am still married, my husband hasn't run away with Steve or Bruce, the world hasn't come to an end, so who gives a shit?" lol

TricklessMagic -> RE: David Frum: "Straight marriage is the real issue" (3/26/2013 4:27:24 AM)
Let gays marry and adopt nationwide already. Marriage outside a church is a civil contract, if you don't think so ask a divorce attorney as in most states the divorce process follows many of the same procedures as a civil law suit. If a church wants to marry gays well that's their business as we are a nation of religious freedom. If religion can be used to prevent gay marriage then what else can it prevent, shudder at the thought of Sharia Law. If folks want to have kids outside of marriage that's their business and their problem. I believe we need to address the disparities of government handouts for those who choose to responsibly have children versus those who irresponsibly have children. If it's all about caring for children than anyone regardless of their wealth should receive government handouts for their children, not just those whose education and lack of ambition somehow entitles them to free money for food stamps, free health insurance, and free daycare for their children. The simplest thing to do would be to give free handouts to everybody so we're all equal at that point, and equality is what it is all about after all, and then cap the amount of handouts as far as money and in a given year should the money run out, then no more handouts would go out that year.

FunCouple5280 -> RE: David Frum: "Straight marriage is the real issue" (3/26/2013 12:17:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: njlauren Whether gays are 3%, 5%, or 10%, the fact is, allowing them to marry has zero to do with straight marriages, zero to do with out of wedlock births, and is unlikely to cause any kind of problems, other then in the religious droolers empty brain pans. In actuality, they aren't trying to deny gays the right to marry per se, it has nothing to do with God striking us down, the real reason they fight it is because they see this as government saying gays are the same as straights, and they don't want that, they want to use the government to make gays second class citizens,deny them rights, to 'keep them in their place'..what they really fear is what has happened, people see same sex marriage in other states, scratch their heads and say "so? What's the big fuss? I am still married, my husband hasn't run away with Steve or Bruce, the world hasn't come to an end, so who gives a shit?" lol [sm=agree.gif] Restated for truth

WebWanderer -> RE: David Frum: "Straight marriage is the real issue" (3/26/2013 9:35:07 PM)
Personally, I oppose all marriage - straight and gay alike - as long as married people with no kids get tax breaks or credits. ...okay, so maybe I'm just a wee bit grumpy because I got raped by the IRS due to the fact that as a single guy without an electric car, kids or mortgage, I don't get to claim any tax deductions. :(

erieangel -> RE: David Frum: "Straight marriage is the real issue" (3/26/2013 9:53:31 PM)
What's ironic is that many of the arguments same sex marriage were used against mixed race marriages back in the day. Those arguments were finally proven false once and I believe they will be proven false once again. Though Roberts is a conservative, he also knows precedent and he knows in what way the nation is heading. Even a Fox poll has more than 50% of the country favoring same sex marriage. And there is no logical legal reasoning for it to be banned. So Roberts will most likely vote with the liberals on the court in both cases. The question is how far will he and those liberals be willing to go?

slvemike4u -> RE: David Frum: "Straight marriage is the real issue" (3/26/2013 10:08:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TricklessMagic Let gays marry and adopt nationwide already. Marriage outside a church is a civil contract, if you don't think so ask a divorce attorney as in most states the divorce process follows many of the same procedures as a civil law suit. If a church wants to marry gays well that's their business as we are a nation of religious freedom. If religion can be used to prevent gay marriage then what else can it prevent, shudder at the thought of Sharia Law. If folks want to have kids outside of marriage that's their business and their problem. I believe we need to address the disparities of government handouts for those who choose to responsibly have children versus those who irresponsibly have children. If it's all about caring for children than anyone regardless of their wealth should receive government handouts for their children, not just those whose education and lack of ambition somehow entitles them to free money for food stamps, free health insurance, and free daycare for their children. The simplest thing to do would be to give free handouts to everybody so we're all equal at that point, and equality is what it is all about after all, and then cap the amount of handouts as far as money and in a given year should the money run out, then no more handouts would go out that year. Quoted just to give folks a second chance to read this shit. IT seems you have a real hard on for those who need a little help, don't you ? What exactly is it that you fear from these people ? It can't be that you are afraid that they are using up too many resources as you just suggested the government hand out money to all,whether they need it or not. Must be some sort of holier than thou thing,wherein you thump your chest and proclaim your ability to see to your own needs and proclaim yourself that much better than everyone else....

tj444 -> RE: David Frum: "Straight marriage is the real issue" (3/26/2013 10:47:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice (a) Is marriage actually, as we often hear, in crisis? If so, how did it get there? And what are the solutions? (b) If defending/preserving marriage truly is the goal for NOM et al., why not, as Frum suggests, focus on the straight folks who make up 97% of the population? crisis? a piece of paper will not keep a couple together if they are not meant to be together so "marriage" is rather pointless, imo.. I have read that in BC, Canada, there is a new law that gives a couple that has lived together for 2 years the same rights as marriage does.. so that means regarding kids and assets, (tax returns?), etc.. again, showing that "marriage" is not really necessary (just change the law to make living together for a minimal amount the same legal equivalent).. I personally think 2 years is too short a time for a law like that to kick in but thats jmo.. and personally for me, I would rather have a co-habitation agreement instead of a govt mandated marriage equivalent.. but it is interesting that the govt has done that (& in Canada that would I expect apply to unmarried gay couples living together also)..

DomKen -> RE: David Frum: "Straight marriage is the real issue" (3/27/2013 2:53:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: erieangel What's ironic is that many of the arguments same sex marriage were used against mixed race marriages back in the day. Those arguments were finally proven false once and I believe they will be proven false once again. Though Roberts is a conservative, he also knows precedent and he knows in what way the nation is heading. Even a Fox poll has more than 50% of the country favoring same sex marriage. And there is no logical legal reasoning for it to be banned. So Roberts will most likely vote with the liberals on the court in both cases. The question is how far will he and those liberals be willing to go? After listening to the oral arguments today I'm convinced they will punt on the prop 8 case by declaring the defandants don't have standing to appeal. That lets them overturn the proposition without issuing a ruling on whether banning same sex marriage is an equal protection violation. They could then overturn DOMA without forcing all the states to allow same sex marriage.

GotSteel -> RE: David Frum: "Straight marriage is the real issue" (3/27/2013 10:33:00 PM)
Well between aiding and abetting pedophiles or steadfastly promoting obvious bigotry the top few denominations have pretty well squandered their social currency when it comes to sexual morality.

GotSteel -> RE: David Frum: "Straight marriage is the real issue" (3/29/2013 4:18:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/unmarry.htm Percent of all births to unmarried women: 40.8% I think the percentage in the cnn opinion piece is a touch high.

Real0ne -> RE: David Frum: "Straight marriage is the real issue" (3/29/2013 5:57:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280 quote: ORIGINAL: njlauren Whether gays are 3%, 5%, or 10%, the fact is, allowing them to marry has zero to do with straight marriages, zero to do with out of wedlock births, and is unlikely to cause any kind of problems, other then in the religious droolers empty brain pans. In actuality, they aren't trying to deny gays the right to marry per se, it has nothing to do with God striking us down, the real reason they fight it is because they see this as government saying gays are the same as straights, and they don't want that, they want to use the government to make gays second class citizens,deny them rights, to 'keep them in their place'..what they really fear is what has happened, people see same sex marriage in other states, scratch their heads and say "so? What's the big fuss? I am still married, my husband hasn't run away with Steve or Bruce, the world hasn't come to an end, so who gives a shit?" lol [sm=agree.gif] Restated for truth but isnt oppression of 49% what democracies are created for in the first place?[8\|]

Real0ne -> RE: David Frum: "Straight marriage is the real issue" (3/29/2013 6:15:11 PM)
so straight people fear their entitlements are in danger because gays want the same entitlements? That IS what the gay marriage thing is about you know. government recognition for equal entitltements. (rights) Hell anyone can get married dont need a government or a church for that.

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