Primer on the Middle East (Full Version)

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DesideriScuri -> Primer on the Middle East (2/8/2013 7:27:30 AM)

I'm sure lots of you saw the Subject line and who wrote it, and rolled your eyes. Well, sorry to let you all down. I'm starting the thread with the hopes that switcheroo dispenses some of his knowledge and wisdom regarding the area.

So, what I would like to know is, what are the major sects of Islam, and what are the basic differences?

Why is the House of Saud reviled so?





Switcheroo1983 -> RE: Primer on the Middle East (2/8/2013 8:01:55 AM)

Thank you for the opportunity. Please understand there are some things I will not touch on in this thread. I will not make known my belief in the right of succession. If another Muslim, Islamic, or anyone with a background in Islam disagrees with me, it can get bitterly divisive. I'll split this into two posts. One will be a very basic rundown of the sects (and branches). The next post will be about the KSA (Kingdom of Saudi Arabia) and the House of Saud.

The largest sect of Islam is Sunni, though the most populace nation with Islamic adherents (Indonesia) is predominantly Shia.

Sunni Islam holds that after Mohammed (PBUH) died, the "torch" was to be passed to his close and dear friend/companion, Abdullah ibn Quhafa (Abu Bakr). Shia Islam holds that the "torch" should have been passed to Mohammed's (PBUH) son-in-law, Ali ibn Talib (Ali), and kept in the family. This is the most major difference. Please note there are different branches of each sect, where belief can vary. Presbyterians and Baptists do not agree on most doctrine, but both are Protestant Christians.

Sufi Islam is considered the "mystical" side of Islam (similar to Hasidism being seen as the "mystical" side of Orthodox Judaism). The Sufi hold beliefs not shared by either Sunni or Shia, and are strict pacifist. They are persecuted in many countries.

Druze is Shia in nature but holds beliefs not shared in Shia or Sunni. Some Druze also hold B'nai Noach beliefs (which is Judaic) but this is mostly seen in Israel.

Baha'i is Islamic in nature, but believes that all religions have universal/fundamental truths (not entirely un-Islamic) but also believe a mystic named Baha'u'llah to be a prophet, which is entirely un-Islamic (Mohammed (PBUH) is the last prophet in Islam). Baha'i originated in Iran, and is now persecuted there. There is actually a fairly large Baha'i community here AZ.

I will get to my next post on the KSA soon. I have my daughters on the weekends and I need to tidy up and do some grocery shopping. So it may be awhile.




Hillwilliam -> RE: Primer on the Middle East (2/8/2013 8:08:27 AM)

TY switch. Damn informative. Maybe ashjor will also chime in from Damascus.




WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: Primer on the Middle East (2/8/2013 8:18:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Switcheroo1983
Sufi Islam is considered the "mystical" side of Islam (similar to Hasidism being seen as the "mystical" side of Orthodox Judaism). The Sufi hold beliefs not shared by either Sunni or Shia, and are strict pacifist. They are persecuted in many countries.

Druze is Shia in nature but holds beliefs not shared in Shia or Sunni. Some Druze also hold B'nai Noach beliefs (which is Judaic) but this is mostly seen in Israel.

thanx switcheroo. i guess we r seeing da desecration of sacred sufi objects in timbuktoo as part of dat persecution. interesting, so da druze r iislamic but have some beliefs dat mix wit judaism?




DesideriScuri -> RE: Primer on the Middle East (2/8/2013 8:22:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Switcheroo1983
Thank you for the opportunity. Please understand there are some things I will not touch on in this thread. I will not make known my belief in the right of succession. If another Muslim, Islamic, or anyone with a background in Islam disagrees with me, it can get bitterly divisive. I'll split this into two posts. One will be a very basic rundown of the sects (and branches). The next post will be about the KSA (Kingdom of Saudi Arabia) and the House of Saud.
The largest sect of Islam is Sunni, though the most populace nation with Islamic adherents (Indonesia) is predominantly Shia.
Sunni Islam holds that after Mohammed (PBUH) died, the "torch" was to be passed to his close and dear friend/companion, Abdullah ibn Quhafa (Abu Bakr). Shia Islam holds that the "torch" should have been passed to Mohammed's (PBUH) son-in-law, Ali ibn Talib (Ali), and kept in the family. This is the most major difference. Please note there are different branches of each sect, where belief can vary. Presbyterians and Baptists do not agree on most doctrine, but both are Protestant Christians.
Sufi Islam is considered the "mystical" side of Islam (similar to Hasidism being seen as the "mystical" side of Orthodox Judaism). The Sufi hold beliefs not shared by either Sunni or Shia, and are strict pacifist. They are persecuted in many countries.
Druze is Shia in nature but holds beliefs not shared in Shia or Sunni. Some Druze also hold B'nai Noach beliefs (which is Judaic) but this is mostly seen in Israel.
Baha'i is Islamic in nature, but believes that all religions have universal/fundamental truths (not entirely un-Islamic) but also believe a mystic named Baha'u'llah to be a prophet, which is entirely un-Islamic (Mohammed (PBUH) is the last prophet in Islam). Baha'i originated in Iran, and is now persecuted there. There is actually a fairly large Baha'i community here AZ.
I will get to my next post on the KSA soon. I have my daughters on the weekends and I need to tidy up and do some grocery shopping. So it may be awhile.


What's with "passing of the torch?" Can that be related to by Christians as somewhat akin to Papal succession within Catholicism?

Thanks for the info and being willing to dispense it.




Switcheroo1983 -> RE: Primer on the Middle East (2/8/2013 8:31:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri



What's with "passing of the torch?" Can that be related to by Christians as somewhat akin to Papal succession within Catholicism?

Thanks for the info and being willing to dispense it.

Right of succession. Who should have been the next to fly the banner of Islam (be the Caliph). That's all I'm going to say on it. It can get nasty. Men have and do kill over this topic. No thanks.




Switcheroo1983 -> RE: Primer on the Middle East (2/8/2013 8:35:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

thanx switcheroo. i guess we r seeing da desecration of sacred sufi objects in timbuktoo as part of dat persecution. interesting, so da druze r iislamic but have some beliefs dat mix wit judaism?

The Druze community in Palestine/Israel has been known to also follow B'nai Noach (Noahide Laws). Rabbinical Judaism (Karaism is an entirely different story) is very unique n tat Rabbinical Jews do not believe one has to be Jewish to enter Heaven. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noahide_laws. Not all Druze follow it, and it has been seen it might just be political in nature. The Druze are known for attempting at peace-making/not rocking the boat. I have absolutely no idea if there is a Druze community here in AZ, or there numbers here in the US.




Switcheroo1983 -> RE: Primer on the Middle East (2/8/2013 8:37:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

TY switch. Damn informative. Maybe ashjor will also chime in from Damascus.

Yes it would. I would love to hear from one in the region. However, he tends to stay out of P&R and after this thread, I may as well. I lose my temper too easy in this section, and that's not good for anyone.




Owner59 -> RE: Primer on the Middle East (2/8/2013 9:12:18 AM)

The point(s) being that it`s not only nationality that defines,dictates and explains what happens in this region.



Sadly,before the invasion/occupation of Iraq,most Americans didnt know the difference between the Sunni and Shea and worse,many couldn`t care less and still don`t.




BamaD -> RE: Primer on the Middle East (2/8/2013 9:17:28 AM)

The most informed and objective post I have seen here on Islam.




BamaD -> RE: Primer on the Middle East (2/8/2013 9:20:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Switcheroo1983


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

TY switch. Damn informative. Maybe ashjor will also chime in from Damascus.

Yes it would. I would love to hear from one in the region. However, he tends to stay out of P&R and after this thread, I may as well. I lose my temper too easy in this section, and that's not good for anyone.

Try to hang in there, while we may not agree on everything (I havn't found a point of disagreement at this time) the truth matters.




Switcheroo1983 -> RE: Primer on the Middle East (2/8/2013 9:46:58 AM)

KSA (Kingdom of Saudi Arabia) and the House of Saud. The House of Saud and it's practices are controversial. Here is a list of why they are NOT well liked, followed by a list of why some do support them.

1. Zealots (including al-Qaeda and affiliated groups) - The House of Saud has angered zealots for a number of reasons. One big reason was US and non-Muslim servicemen and women on bases in the KSA. Technically, military bases belong to the country that particular army is stationed on (someone born on a US military base is a US citizen). al-Qaeda and others did not/do not see it that way. The House of Saud is seen by them as Kufr/Kafir (disbelieving/disbelief/in an act of disbelief) for espousing Sharia law but not abiding by it. Many of the royals party hard, drink, go looking for whores, you name it, but expect their "subjects" to do no such thing, as if they are above the law.

2. Shia Islam - The KSA is Salafi by law and belief. Salafi is a very rigid form of Sunni Islam. Shia (the few in the KSA) face persecution/have trouble finding work/restrictions on religious practiceect. Granted, many Shia in the KSA are not well trusted by locals for many Shia look to Iran for guidance (this can be a challenge for Shia in the region regardless of what nation). During the 1920's-1940's, a number of Shia Holy Sites were destroyed/desecrated in the KSA, which the royal family (at least in the 1930's) did nothing to prevent. This has never been forgotten or forgiven by Shia.

3. Secular Community - The events which started the first Gulf War were a Regional Conflict. Iraq and Iran had fought a very nasty and prolonged war. After the events (know known as the Iraq-Iran war), Saddam was able to consolidate more support and invaded Kuwait. The KSA felt threatened and appealed for outside help. The US was one such nation to answer the call (see above in "zealots" as this can go in there as well). We all know how the war went. But..a little known side action took place. Kuwait expelled roughly 400,000 Palestinians from their country. The KSA has long paid lip service to Palestine and her cause. The KSA did not take in refugees. They did not reprimand Kuwait. They were silent and still. As mentioned, the KSA pays lip service to Palestine. Israel imports much of it's oil from Russia and Turkey. Some of that oil is "local" Russian and Turkish. Some isn't. Some is Saudi Arabian. Oil barrels in Israel have been found with the Saudi seal. That is seen as very shady, and underhanded. Also, in countries where poor Muslims are starving, the royal family drives diamond-encrusted cars/ flies private jets/ hosts elaborate parties for foreign dignitaries.

4. Jews - There are no Jews in the KSA. They are not allowed on Saudi soil. The KSA perpetuates the "blood libel" myth, in schools, newspapers, law, you name it. Jewish servicemen and women from other nations during the First Gulf War were not allowed off base and even on base could not perform their religious services.

5. Humanists/Human Rights Groups - This one I will let others do some research, but I will give a couple examples. Torture is legal is the KSA. Not just "waterboarding" I mean torture. Years ago, a girls' school caught fire. The all male firefighters rescued all but 5-6 girls. They left them to burn to death. Their screams were heard outside the school. Why? They were not wearing hijab. Therefore, the firefighters could not save them. Same has happened to female rape victims in the KSA. Police don't do anything because hijab is not present. Women have almost no rights in the KSA.

Now, there are some who support the House of Saud. The royal family, does, yes, contribute to Islamic charities to help poor Muslims perform Hajj (pilgrimage coinciding with Eid al-Adha, a requirement in Islam). They have contributed much to these charities. They have also contributed to "lesser charities" to help poor Muslims make Umrah (the minor/smaller/lesser pilgrimage). The KSA also contributes sums of money to the Red Crescent Society (very similar to the Red Cross). They also contribute sums of money to science, especially medical science, and contribute to charities to help poor Muslim men attend medical school)

As I said, this is a hot-button issue. Highly controversial.




WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: Primer on the Middle East (2/8/2013 10:39:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Switcheroo1983
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
TY switch. Damn informative. Maybe ashjor will also chime in from Damascus.

Yes it would. I would love to hear from one in the region. However, he tends to stay out of P&R and after this thread, I may as well. I lose my temper too easy in this section, and that's not good for anyone.

many folks r passionate here & some (not you far as i see) think its ok to be ill tempered ta others. us P&Rers need ta take a deep breath & just accept folks will always disagree. [:)]




YN -> RE: Primer on the Middle East (2/8/2013 7:16:47 PM)

Is the claim true, regarding KSA, made by certain Muslims, that the House of Saud, in addition to their other sins, are usurpers, who drove the rightful rulers of Saudi Arabia out, and that they are not Sayids?

It is also claimed that their support for the extremely conservative Sunni cults (Salafi/Wahhabi) and Sunnism in general is only self-serving because that the Shia will only accept a Sayid as the Caliph over the holy sites.

(I think it is good you explain the differences in Islam here, many do not know there is as big a schism in the Islamic world as there was in the Christian religion not long ago.)




DarkSteven -> RE: Primer on the Middle East (2/8/2013 8:54:23 PM)

Switcheroo, thanks very much for the handy tourist guide.

I'd like to clarify something. You state that Rabbinical Jews believe that people from all religions may enter heaven. I don't know what rabbinical Jews are, but I know that that belief is common to Reform Jews - I'm not sure about Conservative or Orthodox Jews.




Powergamz1 -> RE: Primer on the Middle East (2/8/2013 9:17:56 PM)

Nothing is ever that simple. or that 2 dimensional.

Some discontent against the Sauds is because they are khaliji among the khaliji, some are going to see them as in bed with the wahabbists while using the Caliphate hadiths only when it suits them, some feel that they betrayed the Bedu, and murdered the Ikwhan, some see them as the focal point of other old tribal grudges...
I suppose some find their hypocrisy in the Saudi Saloon irritating, although they aren't the only ones.

A broad geo-political guide to the region over several decades is Quicksand by Wawro,wwhile those interested in a moderate muslima's experiences might find Inside the Kingdom enlightening. It is by Carmen bin Laden.




quote:

ORIGINAL: YN

Is the claim true, regarding KSA, made by certain Muslims, that the House of Saud, in addition to their other sins, are usurpers, who drove the rightful rulers of Saudi Arabia out, and that they are not Sayids?

It is also claimed that their support for the extremely conservative Sunni cults (Salafi/Wahhabi) and Sunnism in general is only self-serving because that the Shia will only accept a Sayid as the Caliph over the holy sites.

(I think it is good you explain the differences in Islam here, many do not know there is as big a schism in the Islamic world as there was in the Christian religion not long ago.)





Switcheroo1983 -> RE: Primer on the Middle East (2/8/2013 9:20:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Switcheroo, thanks very much for the handy tourist guide.

I'd like to clarify something. You state that Rabbinical Jews believe that people from all religions may enter heaven. I don't know what rabbinical Jews are, but I know that that belief is common to Reform Jews - I'm not sure about Conservative or Orthodox Jews.

Rabbinical Judaism is a belief in "Oral Torah", such as the Talmud, Kabalah, Rambam, II Rambam, ect. Rabbinical Judaism holds that God continues to reveal. I'm willing to wager any Jew you have met is Rabbinical (if they are observant). Reform Judaism-Orthodox is Rabbinical. Karaism (Karaites/Ghourims/Qarims) is a belief strictly in "Written Torah". They believe God is essentially done speaking, and the only canon works are in the Tanakh (Old Testament). 99+% of them live in Israel. The largest congregation of Karaites outside of Israel are in Sacramento, California. There are less than 100 adherents in the Sacramento congregation.




YN -> RE: Primer on the Middle East (2/8/2013 11:01:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Nothing is ever that simple. or that 2 dimensional.

Some discontent against the Sauds is because they are khaliji among the khaliji, some are going to see them as in bed with the wahabbists while using the Caliphate hadiths only when it suits them, some feel that they betrayed the Bedu, and murdered the Ikwhan, some see them as the focal point of other old tribal grudges...
I suppose some find their hypocrisy in the Saudi Saloon irritating, although they aren't the only ones.

A broad geo-political guide to the region over several decades is Quicksand by Wawro,wwhile those interested in a moderate muslima's experiences might find Inside the Kingdom enlightening. It is by Carmen bin Laden.




quote:

ORIGINAL: YN

Is the claim true, regarding KSA, made by certain Muslims, that the House of Saud, in addition to their other sins, are usurpers, who drove the rightful rulers of Saudi Arabia out, and that they are not Sayids?

It is also claimed that their support for the extremely conservative Sunni cults (Salafi/Wahhabi) and Sunnism in general is only self-serving because that the Shia will only accept a Sayid as the Caliph over the holy sites.

(I think it is good you explain the differences in Islam here, many do not know there is as big a schism in the Islamic world as there was in the Christian religion not long ago.)




Perhaps, however I see these criticisms coming from outside of the Arabian peninsula, and some as switcheroo noted are pretty vehement. "Rothschilde's inbred puppets" "English installed usurpers" "The descendants of brigands and pilgrim robbers" are some of the nicer titles used.

If what they claim is true, it appears there can be no reconciliation, the House of Saud will either have to intermarry with some group like the royal family of Jordan, step down, or be removed and it is certain the removal will be bloody.




Powergamz1 -> RE: Primer on the Middle East (2/9/2013 8:15:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: YN

Perhaps, however I see these criticisms coming from outside of the Arabian peninsula, and some as switcheroo noted are pretty vehement. "Rothschilde's inbred puppets" "English installed usurpers" "The descendants of brigands and pilgrim robbers" are some of the nicer titles used.

If what they claim is true, it appears there can be no reconciliation, the House of Saud will either have to intermarry with some group like the royal family of Jordan, step down, or be removed and it is certain the removal will be bloody.



Since an attack on the Sauds is an attack on Mecca and Medina, and on their supply of oil to the outside world, 'bloody' is putting in mildly. I don't imagine that they see the need for reconciliation, as long as they hold that hand.

And they do need to intermarry for purely genetic reasons, it can't be pleasant getting those medical procedures all the time.




Owner59 -> RE: Primer on the Middle East (2/9/2013 9:45:47 AM)

There may a point in the future where the Saudies realize they must democratize or face civil war............ and do the right thing(s).




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