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Help!!! - 2/3/2013 11:09:08 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		Alright, first of all, I was spanked as a child, and with a belt by my parents and a freaking razor strap by my paternal grand mother. I believe that spanking with a bare hand is all that is really called for as a very last resort when all else has failed to make an impression.

Here is the problem, with my grandson Tommy.

My son and his family moved to North Carolina last August, prior to that my grandson was the most well behaved five year old you could want. A calm word or two about misbehaving was sufficient to put an end to whatever he was doing wrong. He would eat just about anything you put in front of him except canned or frozen spinach, but when I cooked or used fresh spinach in a dish, he could not get enough.

In December, just before Christmas, Theresa (daughter in law) and Tommy moved back to Texas. It seems that my son was displaying some questionable behavior around girls he knew from when he lived there 6 years ago.

Since they came back, Tommy has been mistreating dogs, my grand nephew and has reached a whole new level of disrespect toward adult family members, his teachers in kindergarten, and refuses to eat anything but peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, hot dogs and basic junk food.

While in North Carolina, Tommy excelled in school work, now he seems to go out of his way to make mistakes that defy comprehension, like spelling 'my' mi.
To make things worse, we had the boy reading by age three, almost four and now he acts like he cant read anything.


I understand when a family breaks up, there is going to be some acting out, but I have never seen this kind of behavior in any kid whose parents have separated.

We have an appointment with the local Mental Health/ Mental retardation office's child behavior section, in March. (the appointment was made in early January when Tommy was caught swinging Theresa's Dad's small dog around in a pillow case.

We have tried everything from time outs, to taking toys away, no TV and last, in a final resort, the occasional spanking.

I will admit that the one I really want to spank or beat some sense into is my son. All of us suspect he is cheating on Theresa, and to be honest, she is the most supportive of women I have ever met. Hell, to be honest, I would like to meet a woman like her.

So any suggestions that I can get in dealing with Tommy I would welcome.

I am looking at buying a 68 jeep cj5 to restore and modify as a project for Tommy, his uncle and myself in an effort to get him involved in something that he likes (the kid saw my collection of magazines featuring old jeeps and went nuts over them. Granted there is not much a five year old can do in a restoration project, except maybe hand tools or hold something, but it will give him a feeling of being involved.


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RE: Help!!! - 2/3/2013 11:32:04 PM   
calamitysandra


Posts: 1682
Joined: 3/17/2006
Status: offline 		I already said it over in admit, but with the huge issues the boy seems to be having right now, I would be extra wary when it comes to spanking him. I am pretty sure that teaching him that violence is a acceptable tool to correct problems will not work out well.

To be honest, the problems you describe make me believe that it is not something you will be able to solve on your own. He needs help, and fast at that. While you wait for his appointment, I would suggest seeking out a family counsellor as well. Maybe there is somebody to be found who specialises in this kind of situations.

I also would make sure that he knows that he is still loved. The project you are planning for him sounds like a wonderful idea to show that to him. But also tell him. Talk to him and let him know that while his behaviour right now is absolutely not acceptable, that does not change that he is loved and wanted. Try to make it clear to him, that only his behaviour is a problem, not he himself.

I wish you and your family much strength.



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RE: Help!!! - 2/3/2013 11:48:24 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		1. Mom and dad need to quit fighting in front of him if that is what they are doing.

2. A therapist, which you've already arranged.

3. Telling him and showing him he is loved and pay attention to him.

4. But don't spoil him. Lay down the law.

5. Sit him down and talk to him in a calm, rational, manner. Talk to him "man to man". Share your feelings, allow him to show his feelings. Don't get angry with him or even show disappointment. Just talk to him. Tell him how you are feeling and tell him you really want to help him and want him to be happy. Ask him if there is something you can do for him or if there's something he would like to talk about.

And again....therapy...alone, and with mom and dad present. Mom and dad do not get to shirk responsibility.

And mom and dad should probably get marital counseling.


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RE: Help!!! - 2/4/2013 12:30:15 AM   
stephINca


Posts: 87
Joined: 1/19/2013
Status: offline 		I know that this is not what parents want to hear but. At 5 years old he is finalizing his personality. I find it hard to belived that there were no signs at all prior to this. Parents including myself like to say there isn't and then there 15 y/o ends up in the mental hospital for assault among other things. My point is this. DO NOT let that boy wait until March he is already exhibiting signs of personality disorders. That said if it is just acting out getting him help now instead of later will save him years of stigma and pain. That I am sure you understand as a fellow Bipolar "sufferer". Call his pediatrician. I hate to say it but he might have something more going on than mommy and daddy are fighting.
Spanking does not work for the kids that have ODD which is what it sounds like. So if he wasn't spanked before I wouldn't start now.

Good Luck


Oh and lock up the cabinets and refrig he will get hungry and eat what he is given eventually. I was blessed with 3 children who each have some sort of mental issuse. Depression, ODD, and Autism....I'm being tested but for what I will never know.

< Message edited by stephINca -- 2/4/2013 12:34:16 AM >

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RE: Help!!! - 2/4/2013 12:52:25 AM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

1. Mom and dad need to quit fighting in front of him if that is what they are doing.

2. A therapist, which you've already arranged.

3. Telling him and showing him he is loved and pay attention to him.

4. But don't spoil him. Lay down the law.

5. Sit him down and talk to him in a calm, rational, manner. Talk to him "man to man". Share your feelings, allow him to show his feelings. Don't get angry with him or even show disappointment. Just talk to him. Tell him how you are feeling and tell him you really want to help him and want him to be happy. Ask him if there is something you can do for him or if there's something he would like to talk about.

And again....therapy...alone, and with mom and dad present. Mom and dad do not get to shirk responsibility.

And mom and dad should probably get marital counseling.




Well, as for his father and mother fighting in front of him, Mom is here in Texas, dad is in North Carolina.

I have tried talking to him man to man, and as far as he is concerned, it is mom's fault, dad's fault, the dog's fault, depending on when you sit down and talk to him.

Today was a little bit different. I donated plasma today so I was not at home when he got here, my sister was.

She put him in time out when he got so loud he woke Damian, who has been running a temp off and on since friday.

Tommy over heard my sis tell someone on the phone she had to make Damian an 8 oz bottle of pedialite. Before she finished with her call, Tommy brought her a bottle filled to the neck with peidalite.

Now, Damian's juice and the pedialite comes in similar containers, so Tommy had to read the bottles to get the right one.

The one incident today was the only time he misbehaved until I got home, then there were a few minor incidents, but nothing like he has been doing up until today, until his uncle (who is also my nieces' boy friend) go home, then all hell broke loose.

From what I have been told, he seems to be switching from acting out at everyone, to specific individuals. At least the last four days.

I will have Tommy tomorrow after he gets out of school and I am going to try talking to him again. I also have my case manager at MH/MR trying to get Tommy in for evaluation sooner. I use the agency for treatment for Bipolar disorder and PTSD.

And, as I said, the one I really want to spank or shake some sense into is my son. Now him I rarely spanked when he was a child, in fact I think it was maybe five times, and only for such outrageous misbehavior that no other punishment seemed to fit the incident.

I mean when I and his mom split, he never went to such extremes in behavior, and his mother was abusing him to the point of burning him with cigarettes. It took my until he was 7 years old to prove the abuse and get custody of him, and that was with teachers contacting child services about the situation.



_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

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RE: Help!!! - 2/4/2013 7:29:13 AM   
theshytype


Posts: 1600
Status: offline 		At that age, I think there's a few things going on.
The first is, at least my experience with my own, that's when they start pushing the limits the most. Experimenting in a way.
My middle one was the worst. The sweetest baby and toddler you would have ever met. She turned 5 and it seemed as though she were possessed. She's almost 8 now and a bit better.

Take that and throw in all of the additional changes in the mix, and you're going to have an even bigger struggle. I think you're doing the right thing by taking him to a mental health worker. At the very least, gives you reassurance and someone for him to talk to.

I also think taking an interest in him and giving him a project that you can do together is an awesome thing to do.

I can understand the frustration and when it seems nothing else works, spanking sounds like a good idea. But we quickly learned with ours, it only made it worse. Nothing worked with her...except having serious sit-down conversations with her. Talking about her feelings, why she did it, why she thinks it's wrong...
She has a very strong personality. She knows what she wants and we try not to change that. We try to give her a little more control in her own life, easy decisions, and pick our battles with her. But we do not spoil her and make it known what our rules are and that they will be followed.

Good luck. I feel for you, I really do.

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RE: Help!!! - 2/4/2013 11:39:44 AM   
TheLilSquaw


Posts: 2340
Joined: 10/24/2012
From: Middle River, MD
Status: offline 		I'm going to try this again.
Since CollarMe is being difficult.

To ME it sounds as if your grandson has regressed.
Which isn't uncommon when a child goes through a trauma and parents separating and moving can be traumatic for a young child.

To ME it seems as if he is looking for structure and to find where he fits.
So give him those things.
Sit down and talk with every adult that deals with him and make sure everyone is on the same page.

Make a visual of rules with pictures and simple words / phrases that he will understand and post it in his eye site. Have him explain it to you and discuss it.
Also have both positive reinforcements as well as punishments.

Have him listen to dolphin sounds, periodically at set times during the day.
Perhaps before and after Kindergarten.
It's calming and I've seen it work not only with my own son but with other children.

As far as food.
Again, IMO he is looking for structure and boundaries.
Have him help prepare food when possible or even set the table.
It will make him part of the process and give him something to be proud of.
Also set a kitchen timer and say we have 30 minutes (for example) to eat.
Sit and eat together.
Ask him to take a bite for you.
That it would make you happy if he eat because you worked hard on it together or that he needs to eat to get big and strong. (this works with my son and other children especially boys).

I would write down when he acts out and what was going on when he acted out.
This will help you figure out if something is triggering the behavior.

Also IF something happens before you can get him into be evaluated by the therapist you can always take him to the mental health clinic for an emergency evaluation. I know it sounds drastic but if you believe that he needs immediate help. Also the schools do have psychologists.


Good luck.


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RE: Help!!! - 2/4/2013 12:09:24 PM   
absolutchocolat


Posts: 1392
Status: offline 		I'd go the route theshytype has gone. I grew up in a huge family of kids, baby-sat for most of my teens, and was a step-mom to three sweet angels for over a year, and let me tell you...kids do not just wake up and decide to be difficult. There is something going on -- might be an organic emotional issue, or just rough at home -- and this kid needs love and understanding more than ever.

My parents spanked me a handful of times, and I watched them get into a fight or two, so I am not for hitting children, for any reason. However, that is my personal bias, and I don't mean to come off as judgmental of folks who employ that method of discipline.

I do think there is something to be said for folks that, for better or worse, talk to their kids about why they are behaving badly, because it gets the child in the habit of expressing their feelings.

< Message edited by absolutchocolat -- 2/4/2013 12:14:24 PM >

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RE: Help!!! - 2/4/2013 4:46:35 PM   
VideoAdminChi


Posts: 3086
Joined: 8/6/2012
Status: offline 		FR,

Locked for review.

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RE: Help!!! - 2/4/2013 5:42:12 PM   
VideoAdminChi


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RE: Help!!! - 2/4/2013 6:15:06 PM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14449
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


I understand when a family breaks up, there is going to be some acting out, but I have never seen this kind of behavior in any kid whose parents have separated.


Actually, it's pretty common and I went through some of it myself. At age three when my parents went through a divorce, I refused to eat any food that touched each other. Loudly and violently, if my point wasn't understood. Because it one of the few things in this world that I had any control over.

Think about it, things in his life are happening and he has absolutely no input or control over what is happening. He's trying to control the few things in his life that he can. That translates to what he eats and how he behaves. He's taking his frustration out on animals because they can't stop him, like an adult would do.

Punishment, corporal or otherwise isn't going to help. He's angry and frustrated. Punishing him will make him angrier and resentful.

You're actually on the right track by trying to find something to involve him. He needs to find an outlet for his energy that makes him feel like he's got some control, but he also needs to hear over and over again that his parents love him and that the problems that they're having did not come from anything he did.

And, the counseling is a very good choice. It's very hard to be a small child, to have no input on what happens around you and you feel like the rug has been yanked out from underneath you.




< Message edited by OsideGirl -- 2/4/2013 6:21:26 PM >

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RE: Help!!! - 2/4/2013 7:38:43 PM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline 		I knew some people who were abused as children and their behavior was similar when the abuse started. Not that that's necessarily what the problem is, but don't rule it out.

My recommendation would be for you (or someone else not a parent) to take him camping, hiking, or fishing. Somewhere away from people, and away from stimuli. Long, aimless discussions. Reduce his stress level.

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RE: Help!!! - 2/4/2013 8:12:08 PM   
theRose4U


Posts: 3403
Joined: 8/22/2005
Status: offline 		Spanking doesn't fix molested, abused or just upset dad is gone.

My first thoughts reading were very different from what I will now right.
Roomie had 2 boys 5 & 2 mom suddenly decided she didn't want & walked out. No visitation, cards, calls anything for months before my arrival.
2 year old in the beginning wouldn't talk to me, hit me, threw things & generally was defiant. It took time & behavioral patterning to get him to come around. 5yr would do x task & would get a reward. 2 would demand & would say no walking away with cookie jar (because taking was normal next step. If he followed it would be something like put 3 toys away & you can have cookie (expanding on brother did similar & got reward he wants). If there was resistance 5yr old would get more attention/affection that he thrived on baiting the 2yr old to comply & receive what he wanted to desperately which was mommy.
When he hit it was "no you do not hit me, I am not friends with people that hit me (or play with etc). Eating was a battle in the beginning until I started making my own plate adding enough for smaller, then bringing 2 of "their plates" if they wanted mac & cheese they got salad as well, meat with potato or veggie etc usually only a few spoonfuls. If they wanted more than 3 bites they had to come "get their own plate like a big boy". Having the option of "my food or my food" they learned to ask, then eat it. Only the few bites were demanded to be finished before more was given. They also learned I would sit & talk about their day, their thoughts, their frustrations (a lot of sponge bob). Making meals about them instead of about my food or what quantity got them asking for healthy snacks & meals (melon & veggies with dip became favorites to dads shock) helped them eat better, more often & not fight. I admit I did use the veggie puree method with most meals where for example pasta noodles were mixed with spaghetti squash. Letting them help made better food choices & much to my amusement confused dad when he was told he made dinner wrong because "he didn't bake the noodles so they can help", dad swooned when he realized they were asking for spaghetti squash to be added to their food.

The long & short of this story is start the jeep soon!! Listen & talk about what he wants to talk about. The goal isn't perfect or "the right way" its spending time listening to what's important to them. "Daddy/mommy went away because of me" is as traumatic as it gets for a little kid. Doesn't matter that reality is mom/dad have issues or work or whatever, kids believe its their fault until someone they trust tells them its not true. It took weeks of talking about sponge bob for the 2yr old to blurt "mommy moved away because she doesn't want us anymore" after I recovered from my shock we were able to cuddle & talk about how grown ups make mistakes all by themselves that make kids sad but are never ever kids fault. His whole world lightened in that one sentence

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RE: Help!!! - 2/4/2013 8:15:38 PM   
Switcheroo1983


Posts: 238
Joined: 1/29/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

I knew some people who were abused as children and their behavior was similar when the abuse started. Not that that's necessarily what the problem is, but don't rule it out.

My recommendation would be for you (or someone else not a parent) to take him camping, hiking, or fishing. Somewhere away from people, and away from stimuli. Long, aimless discussions. Reduce his stress level.

Wow, that is really good advice. "The Great Outdoors" can be a wonderful way to de-stress and de-clutter the mind, as well as good time to bond. You hit the mark with this one.

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RE: Help!!! - 2/4/2013 8:25:34 PM   
Moonlightmaddnes


Posts: 958
Joined: 6/4/2012
Status: offline 		I can't say that I am non spanking with my kids but mostly I am. I have been fortunate enough to have easy going kids that my husband or myself gives a stern look or if she gets mouthy as 7 year olds can get one of us simply has to say you want to try that again and her whole demeanor changes instantly.

I used to volunteer for an after school program and there was this little boy that acted out pretty bad. He cannot be trusted around other children at all. He will be playing just fine one minute then grabbing a heavy toy and beating on another child the next. My friend and I were watching the preschool kids when he started wailing on his little brother and he ended up biting my friend pretty damn hard when she tried to restrain him. I know they have had him tested for everything from autism to sensory disorders.

You may want to also look into possible food sensitivities. I have a friend who has a child he is actually a teenager now and outgrown them, but he was sensitive to dairy and a lot of spices like cinnamon, nutmeg as well as scents. He would act out horrible then come down off of the reaction and act like he had a hangover. He has outgrown them but for a long time if he was accidentally exposed they had to leave and dope him up with benadryl so he could sleep it off.

< Message edited by Moonlightmaddnes -- 2/4/2013 8:38:15 PM >

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RE: Help!!! - 2/4/2013 9:39:03 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		The animal abuse isn't normal regressive behavior. Usually a child would seek the animal's love and affection.

What this sounds like to me is that this child has been abused. I don't think he's going to be able to talk about it. I suggest finding a psychologist for testing and for play therapy.

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RE: Help!!! - 2/4/2013 9:47:13 PM   
TAFKAA


Posts: 382
Joined: 1/5/2013
Status: offline 		Mistreating animals is one of the markers of a sociopath, although children that young cannot be diagnosed as such.

Basically the boy lacks empathy due to an inconsistent application of discipline. He needs to have rules and boundaries set in place and punishment administered. Basically, he needs to be spanked when he's bad and given clear boundaries, love and affection.

Failure to administer punishments for poor behaviour puts you back to square one. Consistency is critical. The belief that spanking is somehow wrong is unfounded nonsense which simply isn't supported by any psychological research worth mentioning. If you don't teach him consequences now, then LIFE will sure as shit teach him consequences for you. And that will usually come when someone kicks the ever lovin' shit out of him because his parents failed to teach him empathy or respect for others.

Understand this point well - empathy ONLY arises through the experience of pain. If a child is raised without experiencing pain or consequences, then he's being raised a sociopath.

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RE: Help!!! - 2/4/2013 10:02:49 PM   
HopatcongHoney


Posts: 5
Joined: 5/23/2012
Status: offline 		Such a blanket statement is misinformed. Unsurprisingly.

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RE: Help!!! - 2/4/2013 10:02:58 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Actually there's proven correlation between children who are spanked and children who are sexually abused. When you teach a child that they have no control over their bodies, and that adults can do bad touch to them, they learn to give in when sexually abused.

Most clinical psychologists strongly discourage spanking and suggest consistency. It doesn't appear to matter if you are consistently lenient or consistently strict. What does matter is that the child knows where the boundaries are.

Positive reinforcement over negative reinforcement is always suggested.

Anyway Jeff, please take him to a top notch professional for testing. Clinical psychologists will have hospital experience as well as their doctorates. They will be able to suggest a diagnosis. Find one who specializes in pediatrics, and after the testing if medication is needed, try to find a pediatric psychiatrist.

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RE: Help!!! - 2/4/2013 10:16:43 PM   
gigi08


Posts: 16
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline 		You may want to talk to the school for some mental health support until you can get him seen in March. Most schools have someone on staff somewhere in the district. May not be the perfect solution but may hold you off until March. I would talk to his teachers about what is going on with him. His teachers may be able to shed some light from their end as well. Could he be struggling with something in school and bringing that anger home.

You mentioned that he brought your sister the bottle. I think that is something you should elaborate on. He was being helpful and 'forgot' that he couldn't read when he brought the pedialite to help out Damian/your sis. Maybe if he felt needed, helped out with some "tough" job that you can't do on your own, then you praise him for being such a good helper?

I think you are getting hit with a whole bunch - normal 5 yr old attitudes as others have said with pushing boundaries as well as the emotional problems he is struggling with. I know it is hard but I would never turn my back on him around animals for a while. That is a desperate cry for help.

I hope and pray for all the best for every one involved.

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