RE: Help!!!

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JustDragonflies -> RE: Help!!! (2/5/2013 1:26:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TAFKAA Mistreating animals is one of the markers of a sociopath, although children that young cannot be diagnosed as such. Basically the boy lacks empathy due to an inconsistent application of discipline. He needs to have rules and boundaries set in place and punishment administered. Basically, he needs to be spanked when he's bad and given clear boundaries, love and affection. Failure to administer punishments for poor behaviour puts you back to square one. Consistency is critical. The belief that spanking is somehow wrong is unfounded nonsense which simply isn't supported by any psychological research worth mentioning. If you don't teach him consequences now, then LIFE will sure as shit teach him consequences for you. And that will usually come when someone kicks the ever lovin' shit out of him because his parents failed to teach him empathy or respect for others. Understand this point well - empathy ONLY arises through the experience of pain. If a child is raised without experiencing pain or consequences, then he's being raised a sociopath. In my, fairly well educated opinion, the above is nonsense and holds no baring scientifically, in reality or personal experience. There are over 40 years of research that have demonstrated again and again and again that spanking actually results in aggressive behavior and exacerbates the precise conduct issues that the spanking was usually given to "discipline" against. Here is a link to an article that discusses, in non-academic terms just one of such studies: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1983895,00.html Here is a link to the abstract of a study which was published in the Journal of Pediatrics and Adolescent Medicine. (in case you're unaware, OP, such journals are academic periodicals which are peer reviewed by experts in the field before publication). http://archpedi.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=518458 If I were you, I would immediately stop spanking the child and request the other caregivers to follow suit. You are otherwise, dealing with the situation as best as one can anticipate considering the complicated situation. I would also be concerned, as some posted, that he may have experienced abuse. However, the "urgency" of the time to get help isn't necessarily something that will resolve the situation, it's not as though he's going to magically be better when he sits down with professionals for assessment. Even if the assessment happened tomorrow, it wouldn't really curb the behaviors immediately. Obviously it's best to begin addressing it at the earliest time, but until professional assistance is available, try to do your best to keep things pretty normal. There's a long road ahead of your family in working on this. He's fortunate you are all willing to do so. :) Many families would neglect the boy. Kudos to you and yours. I also appreciated Dark Steven's post about the healing benefits of nature. This transcends any "hippy folksy" notions about nature, and has been documented well by social scientists to be a calming effect on individuals. Some therapists even have started to prescribe nature therapy (similar to the concept of art or animal therapy) to help people with anxiety/depression and etc etc. Something to consider is not changing too much in reaction to what is going on. This will help provide a base line of normal family behavior for the assessment when it takes place. You, essentially, don't want to muddy the water and stir things up by all of a sudden making a lot of rash changes. (Like suddenly locking the food away or etc) Stopping the spanking is a change, yes, but since the spanking wasn't a major part of his life, I don't see that as 'muddying' the situation, but rather reverting it to it's more normal state. I know you want help, and I know you want it now, but there are better resources than the collarme message boards. You may be able to contact a child's advocacy group for further support. Feel free to contact me on the other side if you'd like more information on spanking, abuse symptoms, child abuse hotlines and so on and so forth. Thank you for being in his life and caring about him. He needs that. (Edited to add the second link)

theRose4U -> RE: Help!!! (2/5/2013 10:45:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP Actually there's proven correlation between children who are spanked and children who are sexually abused. When you teach a child that they have no control over their bodies, and that adults can do bad touch to them, they learn to give in when sexually abused. I very much would challenge this is COMPLETE BS & would like to see this "proof" Spanking for punishment teaches the exact boundaries & limits you are claiming contribute to what sounds like consent to abuse. [:'(][:'(][:'(] Being a weak willed sick bastard is the polar opposite of a parent creating (sometimes painful) boundaries of where not to cross. Or did I somehow wake up in bizarro world where no no stop no from someone outweighted 6 to 8 times by their perpitrator is somehow ok to ignore because that child had been spanked at some point in their life?? [sm=abducted.gif]

Just0Plain0Mike -> RE: Help!!! (2/5/2013 11:06:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP The animal abuse isn't normal regressive behavior. Usually a child would seek the animal's love and affection. What this sounds like to me is that this child has been abused. I don't think he's going to be able to talk about it. I suggest finding a psychologist for testing and for play therapy. I was thinking the same thing. That kind of rapid fire turn around in behavior is usually a sign that something serious is going on. Maybe the separation is enough to cause it, but I doubt it. Responding to what TAFKAA wrote, mistreating animals CAN be a marker of sociopathic behavior, but it doesn't have to be. It can be a simple case of someone who has power over me is hurting me, I have power over this animal, so I'm hurting it. People take their frustrations out on others all the time.

saundrakitty -> RE: Help!!! (2/5/2013 12:05:25 PM)
OP here's another therapist Ides you might want to try is a Behavior Therapist, as well. They are use to working with Children with all kinds of mental to physical and Yes Mental abuse and they will also sit down and Help you and all those connected with the care of this child. Mine went for Aspager's Syndrome as well as physical abuse from a Drug addict. It will take time and patients and yes a whole lot of love and setting the right and safe boundrys He needs to feel comfortable with. You just being there over time Will pay off, even tho right now it does not seem to.

TAFKAA -> RE: Help!!! (2/5/2013 1:12:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JustDragonflies In my, fairly well educated opinion, the above is nonsense and holds no baring scientifically, in reality or personal experience. Well your "well-educated" opinion isn't quite educated enough. Most of the studies which assert nonsense about the effects of spanking are correlational, establish no causal link between spanking and other negative behaviours and if you bother to examine their methodology you find they're usually poorly designed with the aim of implicitly validating the desired conclusion. The difference between spanking and child abuse is not clearly delineated and frankly, the science is often dodgy as fuck. On the contrary, there exists meta analyses of multiple studies which demonstrate that spanking works effectively in dealing with poor behaviour and defiance of authority. And what really annoys the fuck out of me, is that none of this so-called research seems to bother examining the ongoing lives of children who are raised as little monsters and what kind of adults they become. You see children striking their parents on TV and the best idiots like you can come up with is "He has a behavioural problem. He needs to see a psychiatrist." - No, he has a fucking discipline problem. quote: There are over 40 years of research that have demonstrated again and again and again that spanking actually results in aggressive behavior and exacerbates the precise conduct issues that the spanking was usually given to "discipline" against. Utter bilge. There's a good deal of criticism around the way in which the social science has been conducted and research which relies upon self-reporting is notoriously unreliable. And as I mentioned earlier, clear delineation between what constitutes effective discipline and what crosses the line into abuse is rarely done and is almost impossible to do in any controlled way when the evaluation is done by the parent themselves. quote: Here is a link to an article that discusses, in non-academic terms just one of such studies: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1983895,00.html Oh there's some real fucking doozies in that article. quote: What's more, spanking sets a bad example, teaching children that aggressive behavior is a solution to their parents' problems. As opposed to TV, movies and music videos which teach that you can solve your problems with a gun... oh wait... Christ, did you actually read the study? It clearly asserts that it didn't consider anyone other than the mother, that all observations are self-reported and consequently subject to social desirability and that they cannot prove a causal link between corporal punishment and increased aggression. It's basically them waggling their finger at people saying "Ooooh, you bad parents.... although we can't prove it." Personally, I have to question the idea of increased aggression as an issue anyway. Because sure as shit, it's not the meek who inherit the fucking Earth in this world. quote: Here is a link to the abstract of a study which was published in the Journal of Pediatrics and Adolescent Medicine. (in case you're unaware, OP, such journals are academic periodicals which are peer reviewed by experts in the field before publication). http://archpedi.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=518458 More dodgy as fuck science. They start with the unproven assertion that a casual link between spanking and antisocial behaviour exists, then design a methodology designed to prove it while conveniently handwaving away other explanations with "oh we statistically controlled for that". Christ. Is this the best you can do? It's nonsense like this which sees metal detectors necessary in schools because parents have turned into a bunch of nutty, feelgood hippies who aren't up to the task of disciplining their children and think that spanking is a form of child abuse. Ironically enough, I consider parents who fail to spank when appropriate to be guilty of child abuse.

Moonlightmaddnes -> RE: Help!!! (2/5/2013 4:09:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP Actually there's proven correlation between children who are spanked and children who are sexually abused. When you teach a child that they have no control over their bodies, and that adults can do bad touch to them, they learn to give in when sexually abused. Most clinical psychologists strongly discourage spanking and suggest consistency. It doesn't appear to matter if you are consistently lenient or consistently strict. What does matter is that the child knows where the boundaries are. Positive reinforcement over negative reinforcement is always suggested. Anyway Jeff, please take him to a top notch professional for testing. Clinical psychologists will have hospital experience as well as their doctorates. They will be able to suggest a diagnosis. Find one who specializes in pediatrics, and after the testing if medication is needed, try to find a pediatric psychiatrist. I have heard this several times as well. I have also heard that children who are spanked regularly are taught that if you are bigger and stronger then it is ok to hit. I am not sure if it is true since I am neither a regular spanker or complete non spanking parent. I had a friend who's 4 year old hit a sibling and she got up and spanked her all the while yelling we do not hit. I gave her my best that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard look. You want to teach your child to not hit and be kind, by hitting. Yeah I bet she gets that message. Most people I know equal not spanking a child to no discipline at all. People are usually shocked when they find out that we have maybe spanked our daughter 2 or three times because of how well behaved she is. I point out to them that there are other ways to teach and discipline children other then hitting them. I do agree that the animal abuse is alarming. That to me says something other then a child is upset that mom and dad split up. I think that is where you get professional help involved.

cordeliasub -> RE: Help!!! (2/5/2013 4:49:13 PM)
First, I am so sorry that you are going through this (as well as your grandson and his mom). Kudos to you for being so supportive. I was what I call lovingly spanked as a child, and I NEVER associated it with violence or anything else - of course, it was always explained and there was always reassurance afterward. I have to admit the thought of abuse crossed my mind as well, just because of the treatment of animals. I would also imagine that the fractured family has him very angry and confused. From what I have experienced in lots of years of teaching, consistency, positive reinforcement, clear boundaries, and lots of quality time and love can really make a difference. I love the Jeep idea, and being outdoors would be great too. One of my kids began really exhibiting some issues when she was around 11, and we took her to therapy. We had to assure her that what she told the therapist would stay secret unless the therapist thought she was in danger. So I would make sure he understood (as well as a 5 year old can) that it is safe to tell the doctor anything he needs to. Do his teachers know about the stress with his parents? As a teacher, I always appreciated knowing when a child was having a hard time so that I could help.

jlf1961 -> RE: Help!!! (2/5/2013 4:59:30 PM)
Lets see if I get this straight, parents that spank are going to sexually abuse their children? First, I was never physically or sexually abused by my parents and I was spanked, and I deserved everyone of them. From what I have seen, there are kids out there that are undisciplined, out of control, and in dire need of something besides a time out. Now, THE SCIENCE AND STATISTICS BEHIND SPANKING SUGGEST THAT LAWS ALLOWING CORPORAL PUNISHMENT ARE IN THE BEST INTERESTS OF THE CHILD seems to suggest otherwise, as do other studies. Understand, spanking is not now or in my parents house, the only way of punishment, it was reserved for the worst behavior. And since spanking feel out of favor with child psychologists, social workers and every bleeding heart in the country, child behavior has gone done the toilet. I see kids in stores throw a fit if they dont get what they want, when parents tell the to quiet down, there is a loud NO from the child. Go to any walmart on a saturday and watch some of the kids, what do you suggest be done to a child that refuses to obey a parent, publicly talks back, cusses the parent and behaves so badly that the whole store is watching the scene? Spanking has been in use for thousands of years, and up until the 70's and 80's it was acceptable. I am not saying it is appropriate for the situation I am dealing with, but come on, if spanking caused so much trouble in kids, tell me why the majority of adults that were spanked as children are socially adept and well balanced than some of the kids that dont get spanked and act like the worst cliche movie kids?

Moonlightmaddnes -> RE: Help!!! (2/5/2013 9:43:24 PM)
Some people can go a bit far in the non spanking circles. I am on a parenting message board that is very non spanking. One mother talked about trying to get her 2 year old into the car but he did not want to go. She said she explained to him that they had to leave and he spit in her face then went to his toys. She tried again to explain and he again spit in her face. When she tried to take his hand he kicked her. She was on there saying she was crying her eyes out because she could not get her two year old to listen and go with her so they missed their appointment. I just could not believe she actually let a two year old act out and make her miss an appointment. I have noticed though that a lot of the moms on that board were abused as children and simply will not accept that. They were telling stories of childhood discipline and she said when she had done something wrong she had to lay over her parents bed while her father whipped her with a belt at least ten times. If she moved or used her hands to try and cover herself at all the count started all over again. She said most times she got hit around 30 times because it hurt so bad she could not hold still, then it took a few days before she could sit without a lot of pain. I tried telling her that what her parents did was not discipline but that was straight out child abuse. She said no way since in every other way her parents were loving. Sure they loved you only every time you got a spanking you literally could not sit for a week. I remember being spanked and it was nothing like what she described. I remember telling my sister once I preferred getting hit to grounding since it was over in a second while grounding lasted a week.

epiphiny43 -> RE: Help!!! (2/5/2013 11:10:35 PM)
The cultural blindness about punishing children never ceases to amaze me. More cultures around the world treasure their children than beat them. Nobody ever commented on the violent and anti-social madness of the aboriginal Hawaiian culture or most of the Pacific Polynesian islands. On the contrary, the social cohesiveness and general politeness was epitomized by "Aloha" for each other and most strangers. One journalist from the time of White contact with the Hawaiian Islands commented that his discussions with native individuals led him to believe the greatest cognitive dissonance any Hawaiian experienced from the European culture arriving was their first time seeing a child struck. It had been inconceivable before the English and Americans arrived with their culture and religion to 'save' the savage heathens. Now, the remnants of the Hawaiian culture has gotten the message and many are in court for family abuse well out of proportion for their numbers. Many aboriginal 'Americans' did almost no 'punishment'. One plains tribe was noted by a frontiersman who had been accepted into the tribe as disciplining only the most extreme cases and then only tossing them into the nearest stream or pond. Children were better behaved in Winter, was the observation! Good behavior was expected and honored. People lived with the same group all their life and wanted to be well thought of. That's about all it takes, clear communication of expectations and a community that respects when the children rise to those challenges. Who wants to stay a baby when they can be respected as a full member of the adult society? In modern nuclear families with no community or family support, no wonder kids are confused or misbehaving? It's a task beyond just two people to socialize new human beings! The most extreme of care for the children happens on a particular Polynesian island where children are simply not even corrected directly. "It would humiliate them unnecessarily. We love them too much to do that hurt." (AMAZING, adults who remember growing up!) At some later time two adults in the hearing of the child will discuss the general situation 'between themselves' in Not-personal terms and suggest ideas for a more effective or graceful way to handle the possibilities of such a situation. They care more for what the children think about them self within the group and family than how they act at any particular point in their learning curve. One is being built into the child carefully and deliberately, the other is changing daily as the child masters life. What so many do as 'discipline' is like slapping your boy each time he misses the ball when at bat. Or misses the platel when pitching. Yeah, that works. We now know a lot more about how brains and personalities actually learn. Children don't even recognize most 'failure' till about 9 or so. They learn from SUCCESS, or no one would ever learn English or how to walk, both far more difficult than anything we do later. I almost never see both parents actually recognize their children for learning the more difficult tasks, such as how to act with strangers, deal with sibling rivalry or handle the frustrations of living with other people. A lot of Fathers simply don't pay attention to what the kid Do, till it becomes irritating? But most will threaten violence if the child's issues with behaving to others expectations becomes inconvenient or embarrassing for the parent. Which I guess evidences their real values? Punishing a child in a store for blatant consumerism (Wanting something NOW) after letting them watch kid's TV (about 60% commercials?) more hours than they spend with parents is just one more insanity of our times. The issues with public displays and tantrums aren't what they appear to be. The issues start far earlier. The children are playing the parents and have years of experience with it. They simply are smarter. Applied Behavior Analysis: ALL organisms repeat successful actions! Given how much attention many parents put into designing effective learning environments for their children (None!) and understanding the underlying power dynamics, even the pets are effectively smarter. By the time a kid knows a tantrum will work, hundreds of mistakes By the Parents have been made and ignored. Most physical punishment teaches children other things than what is intended better. Mostly that larger people who will get violent get to set the rules. Which seems all too evident all over our public life? Only, it doesn't work. Notice the incivility of modern life in a time when America has become the most imprisoned society yet known?

JustDragonflies -> RE: Help!!! (2/6/2013 1:48:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TAFKAA "idiots like you" We won't be speaking further as I don't engage in intellectual conversations with verbally abusive people. For the record, OP, I was not saying you or anyone else was abusing the child by spanking him. I was merely offering studies that demonstrated that spanking may result in exacerbating the aggressive behavior you're trying to stop. Best of luck to you and your family.

JustDragonflies -> RE: Help!!! (2/6/2013 2:03:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 Lets see if I get this straight, parents that spank are going to sexually abuse their children? I believe that the person who mentioned spanking and sexual abuse was not saying this. I believe they were saying that they'd read studies that associated a child having been spanked as having a higher risk of being sexually abused because they don't have adequate personal boundaries established. I am not saying it is appropriate for the situation I am dealing with, but come on, if spanking caused so much trouble in kids, tell me why the majority of adults that were spanked as children are socially adept and well balanced than some of the kids that dont get spanked and act like the worst cliche movie kids? No one, as far as I can tell, is suggesting that spanking makes people messed up for life. I think the studies and philosophies that people are talking about have been about short and long term results of spanking. The studies that stand out most in my mind don't indicate that the children grow up into lunatic adults, but rather that they have a statistically much higher level of aggressive behaviors for two weeks after the corporal punishment took place. That's not the same as saying "you'll be aggressive for ever". :) I hope that lends a bit of insight into what I and others were trying to communicate. It's interesting that people have this "I'm okay" kind of reaction when the mention of "spanking may be a negative factor in the child's conduct" takes place. Perhaps it comes from a desire to defend our parents actions? I, for one, was spanked and whether I "deserved" it or not, I do not view it as a form of child abuse, or anything. And as a child I wasn't in a cognitively advanced position to assess whether it impacted my behavior at the time. I can tell you though that rather than inspire me personally to behave, it inspired me to be more cautious about getting caught misbehaving. ;) Just a personal thought, not related to your situation. Again, I thank you for being a caregiver who is proactive and desires to act on your grandson's best interests. There's not enough engaged parents today. I don't know if you'd appreciate this tidbit or not, but I raised a toddler for some time while the child's parents were unable to do so. I did not spank the child once in my care and I was able to manage all his conduct issues as they came up, including tantrums in the store. I'm not judging you, or saying I'm "better" by any means at all. Just presenting you with the idea that non-spanking can be effective to curb just about any wild behavior one can come across. I took the child out of the stores at those times and we sat together in time out and resumed shopping when all was calm. I did not allow the child to misbehave and create tension for others. So, I think there are several useful alternatives. Again, I'm not judging you in the least, but just wanted to toss in some other options as solutions.

BamaD -> RE: Help!!! (2/6/2013 2:27:57 AM)
NOT A REPLY TO ANYONE I used spanking with my child but I used it judicously and never without warning. After giving me the wrong answer once ( which only involved four pops with my hand at the most) any time we were at a resturant and I would ask him if he wanted to go for a walk he would say no daddy I'll be good. I only use belts on subs.

TAFKAA -> RE: Help!!! (2/6/2013 2:57:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JustDragonflies quote: ORIGINAL: TAFKAA "idiots like you" We won't be speaking further as I don't engage in intellectual conversations with verbally abusive people. So basically, you had your ass handed to you and you're retreating from the discussion because you have nothing of actual substance to offer. Somehow I suspect an "intellectual conversation" really isn't your forte.

PeonForHer -> RE: Help!!! (2/6/2013 3:22:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OsideGirl Actually, it's pretty common and I went through some of it myself. At age three when my parents went through a divorce, I refused to eat any food that touched each other. Loudly and violently, if my point wasn't understood. Because it one of the few things in this world that I had any control over. That's interesting (as well as very sad, obviously). I've heard of the explanation of such behaviour as to do with a kid wanting to take control of his life, but never heard a person saying 'Yes that was true of me' before.

PeonForHer -> RE: Help!!! (2/6/2013 3:24:59 AM)
quote: It's interesting that people have this "I'm okay" kind of reaction when the mention of "spanking may be a negative factor in the child's conduct" takes place. Yep. I was one of those who wasn't spanked as I grew up, and it never did me any harm.

cordeliasub -> RE: Help!!! (2/6/2013 7:09:14 AM)
I do not talk about my parents' use of spanking to try to defend them. Believe, me, though I love them dearly, defending bad parenting is not something I would do. But the truth is, being spanked for willful disobedience and lying and then reassured afterward worked well. I learned that bad choices have consequences, I learned that even when I blow it and experience consequences my parents still loved me, and once the spanking was over, the subject was closed, so I learned that I don't get punished forever. As I got older and was no longer spanked, trust me when I say the emotional manipulation and blackmail (from Mom in particular) did way more damage than a controlled spanking. Honestly, when I see a kid in Wal Mart act out and Mom's reaction instead of a spanking is to ignore them until they can't take anymore at which point they whirl around, get in the child's face and call the kid a "stupid annoying blankety blank who they can't stand to be around," I am thinking a calm trip to the restroom and a couple of swats would be waaaaaay less abusive. At any rate....this thread is about a grandfather who loves and is concerned for his grandson, and I think that kid is pretty lucky to have a grandfather who cares so much.

theshytype -> RE: Help!!! (2/6/2013 7:53:50 AM)
I was spanked also. Only enough to count on one hand I think. I'm the complete opposite of aggressive and violent - that's the way I've always been. Spankings didn't make or break me. I was never physically, mentally, or sexually abused by anyone. If I had been given timeouts, knowing my personality, I would have acted out even more. IMO, there is a difference between abuse and spanking, and I don't agree with using solely spankings. For me, it was one swift swat. Not bare ass and no tools other than the hand. For some kids spanking works, and others it does not. It's up to the parents to recognize that. As for the mistreatment of animals, there was a very brief time when I did it (swinging the animal around). I was about Tommy's age, I believe. I don't know why I did it, but can tell you that never, in my mind, was I thinking I hated the animal or wanted the animal to be in pain. The only thing I can equate it to is a smaller child biting or pinching - they're not doing it to be mean and once they fully understand the pain they are causing, they usually stop. That time was so short-lived and I became one of those kids that wouldn't even kill a bug and whine when someone else did. I did not grow up to be a sociopath or psychopath. If I had gotten older and didn't stop or moved on to more severe treatment towards animals, then I'd be concerned. Each child is completely different than the next. They can be similar, but not the same. They all think and react differently. They all have different triggers for bad behavior. I'd be very careful to label a child this young, especially not knowing all the details.

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