Sociology...'serving society.'

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MrRodgers -> Sociology...'serving society.' (12/29/2012 8:12:44 AM)
Inspired by the OP...'Are we on borrowed time.' YES One indication of the usefulness and function of a civil society, is the tranquility in which it lives resulting in a confidence in its future that has us continue to live somewhat safely, learn, advance as a society and produce. Where our modern civil society takes us then is our first, and most telling indicator. I am not hopeful and nor should you be. Did you see it ? 'You Promised me Mars colonies and you gave me FaceBook.' Buzz Aldren (astronaut) Haven't read it...yet but the title is the message. Kinda says it all doesn't it, or at the very least...a great deal. Instead of man's ascendancy resulting in cures for disease, feeding ALL of the hungry for example, we get toys for-profit...the Internet and iPhones...media, entertainment...hedonism. Do you agree with the premise ? That's the question. What say you ? I say no. The profit motive being the only thing moving man, remaining society will just have to get along...survive despite it. Man has advanced not sociologically but rather financially and militarily. We can vaporize your country, we can zap our 'enemies' from the sky, (while at lunch) we can view media around the world..... ...but we can't cure cancer, feed the hungry and mitigate mans' trashing of the planet. There's no profit. One could conclude that yes, we are ALL on borrowed time or at least a few generations away from a slow burning low-level world war. War for resources and the power and control necessary.

Duskypearls -> RE: Sociology...'serving society.' (12/29/2012 8:45:05 AM)
quote: ...but we can't cure cancer, feed the hungry and mitigate mans' trashing of the planet. I am of the mind it is not "can't," but "WON'T."

MrRodgers -> RE: Sociology...'serving society.' (12/29/2012 9:19:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Duskypearls quote: ...but we can't cure cancer, feed the hungry and mitigate mans' trashing of the planet. I am of the mind it is not "can't," but "WON'T." Actually...you would be correct. We have shown that we can and do accomplish much. Unfortunately, the profit motive attracts 95% of our resources, so we get war-making and playthings instead.

Moonhead -> RE: Sociology...'serving society.' (12/29/2012 9:36:20 AM)
Buzz Aldrin ain't no astronaut: he's just a very bitter man who's not shut up bitching about being the second man on the moon for the last 44 years...

Duskypearls -> RE: Sociology...'serving society.' (12/29/2012 9:41:34 AM)
quote: Unfortunately, the profit motive attracts 95% of our resources, so we get war-making and playthings instead. I am also of the mind the "control factor" is as much as, if not more, the motive. It is hard to control, and make profit off, those who are happy, healthy, self-empowered and fulfilled.

MrRodgers -> RE: Sociology...'serving society.' (12/29/2012 9:47:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead Buzz Aldrin ain't no astronaut: he's just a very bitter man who's not shut up bitching about being the second man on the moon for the last 44 years... So you go after the messenger ? Brilliant. The message says it all...is correct and a sorry commentary on modern society. As most conservative and other commentators have observed...history refutes man's inevitable ascendancy. We are eye-witness to the truth and living that history now.

Moonhead -> RE: Sociology...'serving society.' (12/29/2012 10:05:04 AM)
It's a message other messengers have come out with, who haven't spent the last four decades whining about Neil Armstrong's seat being nearer to the door of the lunar module. [:D] Noam Chomsky and Alvin Toffler ahve both had a lot to say about this problem. So did John Ruskin a century back. Hell, even that poor idiot boy Michael Moore and his evil twin PJ O'Rourke have tried to address this issue in their limited ways...

PeonForHer -> RE: Sociology...'serving society.' (12/29/2012 10:18:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead Noam Chomsky and Alvin Toffler ahve both had a lot to say about this problem. So did John Ruskin a century back. Hell, even that poor idiot boy Michael Moore and his evil twin PJ O'Rourke have tried to address this issue in their limited ways... Yes, but Chomsky and Toffler aren't fat capitalists, celebrities or deranged ultra-right wing nutcases. They've not even been on television all that often. So their views don't matter.

MrRodgers -> RE: Sociology...'serving society.' (12/29/2012 11:12:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead Noam Chomsky and Alvin Toffler ahve both had a lot to say about this problem. So did John Ruskin a century back. Hell, even that poor idiot boy Michael Moore and his evil twin PJ O'Rourke have tried to address this issue in their limited ways... Yes, but Chomsky and Toffler aren't fat capitalists, celebrities or deranged ultra-right wing nutcases. They've not even been on television all that often. So their views don't matter. Actually their views matter greatly, are essentially correct and are intentionally marginalized by corporate media. Still failing to marginalize Moore as an idiot doesn't make his message wrong or any others. It is testimony to the for-profit crowd that they have successfully propagandized these figures at all and far too many fall for it. Can't have people thinking society isn't served by...MY profits.

Epytropos -> RE: Sociology...'serving society.' (12/30/2012 4:52:37 AM)
I've never managed to wrap my mind around this sort of pseudo-servile control urge. The inherent thrust of it is that society should serve your desires, should move towards goals you've designated for us rather than pursuing our own interests, desires, and goals, but somehow its always dressed up as if you're a servant of society. It just does not parse for me.

Moonhead -> RE: Sociology...'serving society.' (12/30/2012 5:32:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers Still failing to marginalize Moore as an idiot doesn't make his message wrong or any others. It is testimony to the for-profit crowd that they have successfully propagandized these figures at all and far too many fall for it. Moore has spent most of his career willing colluding with his marginalisation. It probably suits the vested interests you're complaining about for the most prominent leftist in your country's media landscape to be a smug fuckwit who has the same relationship to fact checking that EL James does to characterisation. Every time he tries to pass off witless hyperbole or downright drivel as trufax, the plutocracy chortles with glee as his credibility has slipped even further. When he's the only leftists voice who's allowed any high profiule access to the Stateside media, that's a serious problem.

stellauk -> RE: Sociology...'serving society.' (12/30/2012 6:14:58 AM)
Mankind is so afflicted by materialism and greed, resulting in emotional and psychological malaise that it's going to take a significant spiritual force to restore our sense of balance. I feel the reason that we are living in a 21st century with 19th century social problems is that while our intelligence and innovation has resulted in iPhones, facebook and numerous gadgets, spiritually we haven't evolved much further than the Middle Ages.

LaTigresse -> RE: Sociology...'serving society.' (12/30/2012 6:55:08 AM)
Based on what I've seen....we are custom created to self destruct.

NuevaVida -> RE: Sociology...'serving society.' (12/30/2012 7:46:30 PM)
I don't have such a negative view on society. When my mom had breast cancer, it was NOT the norm to be cured from it; now it appears to be. Having just been very deeply involved with my BIL's plight to successfully fight Multiple Myeloma (which he, unfortunately, ultimately lost), we've seen so much progress being done in the ways of fighting cancer. The new technology of harvesting his own stem cells and then several years later transplanting them with his own, ended up buying him several more years of life. Now there is a clinical trials program in Texas, which is vehemently working on new treatments which are aimed to kill off cancer cells within the body, faster than they are reproducing. Some very good friends of mine have a healthy 14 year old grandson, who has survived two bouts of brain cancer, as a result of advanced trials and treatment in San Francisco. In previous days they would have "kept him comfortable" until he died. Diabetes treatment is working on "islet cell encapsulation" - insulin producing cells. Currently very costly but the Diabetes Research Institute is working on changing that. New medical technologies are phenomenal these days - so many more diseases are being successfully treated, which otherwise brought a person to their ultimate demise. There is a higher survival rate in severe burn victims now, with the use of artificial skin - it immediately closes off the wound and prevents further infection. We've created electronic medical records which will enable patients to go to any doctor outside their plan, and have their medical history viewed by the doctor currently treating them - this is great in times of emergency, say if you're in an accident while out of state, etc. We are creating more "green" products than ever before. "Blood diamonds" are being more exposed, and there is a movement (albeit a slow one) toward promoting diamond mining from areas where children and adults alike aren't land-mined and murdered in order to get them. And so much more cool stuff is going on. Sure we haven't reached perfection in any of these areas yet, but there is forward progress. I think we tend to be an impatient society, however, and want these fixes NOW. So while we can sit back and say "Gee, there's no cure for cancer yet" what we're NOT saying is there is a lot of progress being made, in a lot of areas, and these things take time...we just don't like waiting. Do you choose to see the glass half empty or half full? And what are you (generically) doing, to move things forward?

MrRodgers -> RE: Sociology...'serving society.' (1/1/2013 10:35:28 AM)
NuevaVida, you are correct but about research in treatment which sometimes works...sometimes does not. My problem is that we have found cures for diseases that we simply do not acquire anymore. Far too many we research treatment after the fact, not cures. Medical progress has come at tremendous expense in that many will tell you and I believe them that some are to be treated at a profit, few are cured...no future profits. I know from personal experience that doctors who have say shrunk and even eliminated tumors...without the 'traditional' treatment and immoral profits, were put out of business by the govt. (FDA) Laetrile and ozone therapy (cancer) isn't just frowned upon but outlawed where even research into them is a crime. Look it up. With the deluge of marketing sugar products, we have seen a 20% increase in diabetes just since the 80's. Two Japanese Drs. after 7 years of research in Africa, found a cure for sickle-cell anemia. Looking for investors, Drs. told them they wanted no part of a cure for it. They make too much money...treating it. Medical, agricultural science technology is applied to increasing profits much more than increasing a healthy life-span. Green production should be a world-wide national priority...it is not. It is fought by owned politicians at the central level, tooth and nail. Same with green research and development. What you speak of, is after decades even centuries of the problem...why ? 37,000 children die every day from simple malnutrition. UN 2 Billion people live on a few dollars a month. How about a CURE for AIDS ? I don't think we will ever see a cure...just $2-$3000/mo immorally expensive what...treatment. The list does go on.

MrRodgers -> RE: Sociology...'serving society.' (1/1/2013 10:44:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: stellauk Mankind is so afflicted by materialism and greed, resulting in emotional and psychological malaise that it's going to take a significant spiritual force to restore our sense of balance. I feel the reason that we are living in a 21st century with 19th century social problems is that while our intelligence and innovation has resulted in iPhones, facebook and numerous gadgets, spiritually we haven't evolved much further than the Middle Ages. That's part of Aldren's and thus my point. Even capitalist sympathizers (propagandists) say we are ALL richer simply because of fancy new devices...toys, the function of which in almost all cases...entertainment, i.e. media, games all around fun distractions. Life is better (more entertaining/pleasurable) but not longer (anymore) or that much healthier without a certain defiance of the culture of consumption..

NuevaVida -> RE: Sociology...'serving society.' (1/1/2013 1:21:45 PM)
MrRodgers I hear what you're saying, but again - glass half empty or half full? Many diseases ARE being researched and cures ARE being found. Just not in the time frame we want. I do not dispute that there is a profit industry with disease treatment, nor do I find it entirely ethical. Where there is good there is bad, where there is bad there is good. I simply don't find the world to be such a devastating place. I'm aware of the laetrile situation. I've known people who went to Mexico for treatment as a result. Laetrile did not cure their cancers. But for as many atrocities as you list, I can list just as many awesome things. I don't think it's useful to toss out compare/contrast lists out here, I'm just saying I think differently than you do.

MyHazelLabyrinth -> RE: Sociology...'serving society.' (1/1/2013 7:15:59 PM)
Now this is the kinda conversation/debate to have with someone that could go for hours and be most enjoyable! stellauk: is just so spot on with that! _____________________________________________________________________ But the society that is (Western anyway) thrusts importance upon appearances, materialism, consumerrism, connections and ofc the competition of who has more and who has it better etc etc. Fhe fact of the matter is that our society is tragically sick. The motives seem to be wealth(greed) and power (controlling people). Now i'm not saying those are synnonymous, but that is just my observation of how things are run. In all honesty, a perfect example (like you lot need any really) of how fucked up things are. Is cigarettes. They are so damaging to our health and do infact kill us but they are available in so many locations to buy. Some places dont care if you are old enough to buy them, as there are some that are as young as 12 when they start smoking. But if cigarettes were removed from the market, completely, as being declared "dangerous" or "hazardous" or something then it would be beneficial. But that won't happen because companies make too much money out of it, not to mention all the adverts that you see around. Money is more important than health. That is the most thrashed thing as part of our society. Well one of. And truth be told there are some cures for cancers already. Look up milk wort (not right spelling i think) and also in the VitB group. I think it is B19 or something that cures most cancers in animals, yet it is illegal for use on humans. We are all but hamsters in a wheel. Please tell me how we are a CIVILisation? As i'm just not seeing it.

stellauk -> RE: Sociology...'serving society.' (1/1/2013 10:21:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers quote: ORIGINAL: stellauk Mankind is so afflicted by materialism and greed, resulting in emotional and psychological malaise that it's going to take a significant spiritual force to restore our sense of balance. I feel the reason that we are living in a 21st century with 19th century social problems is that while our intelligence and innovation has resulted in iPhones, facebook and numerous gadgets, spiritually we haven't evolved much further than the Middle Ages. That's part of Aldren's and thus my point. quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers Even capitalist sympathizers (propagandists) say we are ALL richer simply because of fancy new devices...toys, the function of which in almost all cases...entertainment, i.e. media, games all around fun distractions. Ah, here is where I personally beg to differ. We are most certainly not ALL richer thanks to the technological advances in the last three or so decades. Rather I would suggest that a beneficial minority are richer and better off as a result of these changes. This comes at tremendous cost when you stop to consider how many livelihoods have been lost as a result of the changes, how many people are trapped in either poverty, or wage enslavement, or both, and how many people, among them children, have died preventable deaths as aresult. quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers Life is better (more entertaining/pleasurable) but not longer (anymore) or that much healthier without a certain defiance of the culture of consumption.. Again life is better for who? The beneficial minority? Sure life is much easier, more comfortable when you have a home, a stable source of income and access to technology such as a phone and/or an Internet connection. Life is better when you have access to a decent education and you are able to aspire to living the sort of life that comes from the freedom of your own personal choices. There are many people throughout the world who don't have all these things, many have some, and just as many if not more have none of these things. I'm of the opinion that everybody is somebody, doesn't matter who you are, where you come from, what your background is, you are somebody. We are all born to create and interact with others and to think up ideas and do things not just for ourselves but for other people. The problem is that this is a world where opportunity determines who has and who goes without. Opportunity is the focus on the stock markets just as it is at the bottom of society and for everybody in between. Never before in the history of Mankind has hope been so important as it is today. I've heard it said that just ten per cent of the world's material resources are enough to permanently eradicate poverty and destitution from the entire planet. The problem is of course arriving at some sort of consensus as to how this can be achieved. I'm of the view that one day it will get better for many people in this world, and I have enough faith in human nature to steer civilization towards these objectives. However I am also realistic and am certain that it will not happen in my lifetime.

MrRodgers -> RE: Sociology...'serving society.' (1/3/2013 4:16:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: stellauk quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers quote: ORIGINAL: stellauk Mankind is so afflicted by materialism and greed, resulting in emotional and psychological malaise that it's going to take a significant spiritual force to restore our sense of balance. I feel the reason that we are living in a 21st century with 19th century social problems is that while our intelligence and innovation has resulted in iPhones, facebook and numerous gadgets, spiritually we haven't evolved much further than the Middle Ages. That's part of Aldren's and thus my point. quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers Even capitalist sympathizers (propagandists) say we are ALL richer simply because of fancy new devices...toys, the function of which in almost all cases...entertainment, i.e. media, games all around fun distractions. Ah, here is where I personally beg to differ. We are most certainly not ALL richer thanks to the technological advances in the last three or so decades. Rather I would suggest that a beneficial minority are richer and better off as a result of these changes. This comes at tremendous cost when you stop to consider how many livelihoods have been lost as a result of the changes, how many people are trapped in either poverty, or wage enslavement, or both, and how many people, among them children, have died preventable deaths as aresult. quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers Life is better (more entertaining/pleasurable) but not longer (anymore) or that much healthier without a certain defiance of the culture of consumption.. Again life is better for who? The beneficial minority? Sure life is much easier, more comfortable when you have a home, a stable source of income and access to technology such as a phone and/or an Internet connection. Life is better when you have access to a decent education and you are able to aspire to living the sort of life that comes from the freedom of your own personal choices. There are many people throughout the world who don't have all these things, many have some, and just as many if not more have none of these things. I'm of the opinion that everybody is somebody, doesn't matter who you are, where you come from, what your background is, you are somebody. We are all born to create and interact with others and to think up ideas and do things not just for ourselves but for other people. The problem is that this is a world where opportunity determines who has and who goes without. Opportunity is the focus on the stock markets just as it is at the bottom of society and for everybody in between. Never before in the history of Mankind has hope been so important as it is today. I've heard it said that just ten per cent of the world's material resources are enough to permanently eradicate poverty and destitution from the entire planet. The problem is of course arriving at some sort of consensus as to how this can be achieved. I'm of the view that one day it will get better for many people in this world, and I have enough faith in human nature to steer civilization towards these objectives. However I am also realistic and am certain that it will not happen in my lifetime. You completely misunderstand me. What I write is what we are supposed to believe. I do not believe it for a minute. There is a truth to be told but for me...not just yet. For America advancement we are told is what...a higher profit. The profit motive is a motive of very questionable moral value. But then we have discussed America's great capitalist moral values. [sic]

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