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RE: Got off too easy? - 12/17/2012 2:38:03 PM   
jlf1961


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From: Somewhere Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

My suggestion would be to read the 8th Amendment again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution#Cruel_and_unusual_punishments



tazzy what constitutes cruel and unusual in one society is different for another society. I mean my grandson (too smart for his own good) spouted off to me this summer that a time out with no tv was cruel and unusual.

It is all a matter of perception.

Not that I am suggesting using a chemical warfare agent that drives a person to madness before it kills them hours later. In my opinion that violates the 8th amendment.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to tazzygirl)
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RE: Got off too easy? - 12/17/2012 2:41:44 PM   
Just0Plain0Mike


Posts: 127
Joined: 6/16/2010
Status: offline 		8th Amendment, ok.

Prison is not a fun place to be. It's brutal and nasty, people are beaten, raped,and killed pretty regularly. This is especially bad for people convicted of crimes against children. I suggested he got off easy by killing himself, and that he deserved to spend time in prison awaiting execution for his crimes. (Although just found out CT abolished the death penalty in April.) Now by equating this to an 8th Amendment violation, you're implying that no one can be sent to prison, because it's too brutal.

If he'd have lived, he'd be in prison. No jury would have accepted an insanity plea in a case like this. So, I'm a sick, psycho bastard for suggesting that a person who killed 20 CHILDREN be sent to prison? All I did was further state that he would have had a very bad time of it. That's not a situation of my making, it's just what would have happened unless he was held in segregation for life.

(in reply to Rule)
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RE: Got off too easy? - 12/17/2012 2:46:56 PM   
ServosCor


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: ServosCor
How do you begin to compare responsible, law abiding citizens who have never broken a law or killed another human being with someone who massacre's 20 innocent children and their teachers?   There is no comparison.  Just a world of differences.[/quote]

Quite easily if both lack and a conscience and compassion.     <from Rule>

              And since you asked the question of me personally I can assure you that I have an overabundance of both.  I have zero tolerance for those who take lives and create the type of mayhem we have at this moment in our country.  Perhaps I have a bit of a jaded opinoin on this whole damn subject.  Let me ask this of the forum:  How many of you have lost a loved one to such a depraved individual???  Might you feel completely different if YOUR child had attended that school and been one of the 20?  I CAN ask this question as I lost a beautiful 15yr old niece to a scumbag back in 1986.  Sabrina was on her way home from school  .........and never arrived home.  The police were involved, my family was devastated............Fast forward to 1989.  Her body was found in Dania, Florida .........the little bit of what were her remains were brought out of the mangroves in paper sacks.   Her murder destroyed her mother, she died a few years after discovery of Sabrina's body..... due to a broken heart imho. So yea, maybe I have my own personal reasons as to why I feel the way I do when it comes to the punishement fitting the crime.

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RE: Got off too easy? - 12/17/2012 2:49:41 PM   
Just0Plain0Mike


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
You err in accusing DomKen of being a coward. According to my model of the various human minds, I expect him to be without fear and to have limitless courage.


Umm, I didn't err, because I didn't call anyone a coward.

I suggested that telling a room full of the parents of recently dead children that their children's killer didn't deserve to be in prison, because it would be too hard on him, wouldn't be a smart idea.



(in reply to Rule)
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RE: Got off too easy? - 12/17/2012 3:08:24 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		In Furman v. Georgia, 408 U.S. 238 (1972), Justice Brennan wrote, "There are, then, four principles by which we may determine whether a particular punishment is 'cruel and unusual'."

The "essential predicate" is "that a punishment must not by its severity be degrading to human dignity," especially torture.
"A severe punishment that is obviously inflicted in wholly arbitrary fashion."
"A severe punishment that is clearly and totally rejected throughout society."
"A severe punishment that is patently unnecessary."

Until the law changes, that is our working definition.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Got off too easy? - 12/17/2012 3:11:51 PM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Just0Plain0Mike

8th Amendment, ok.

Prison is not a fun place to be. It's brutal and nasty, people are beaten, raped,and killed pretty regularly. This is especially bad for people convicted of crimes against children. I suggested he got off easy by killing himself, and that he deserved to spend time in prison awaiting execution for his crimes. (Although just found out CT abolished the death penalty in April.) Now by equating this to an 8th Amendment violation, you're implying that no one can be sent to prison, because it's too brutal.

If he'd have lived, he'd be in prison. No jury would have accepted an insanity plea in a case like this. So, I'm a sick, psycho bastard for suggesting that a person who killed 20 CHILDREN be sent to prison? All I did was further state that he would have had a very bad time of it. That's not a situation of my making, it's just what would have happened unless he was held in segregation for life.


No, what I am saying is that, by saying ....

quote:

I suggested that he deserved to get the death penalty and spend the next 10-15 years while awaiting his execution getting what he deserves from his fellow inmates.


... was wrong and clearly against the intent of the 8th.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Just0Plain0Mike)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Got off too easy? - 12/17/2012 3:40:29 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline 		I think barbarians are barbarians. It doesn't matter to me whether they are shooters at a mass killing or they are people on an internet discussion board advocating the joys of torture.

I don't care whether he "got off too easily" or not. I only care that he can't do it again and "dead" is a great and low-cost way to make that happen. I agree with Aswad that the underlying root cause of shootings like this has more to do with a culture which approves of torture than it does gun ownership.

In a later post you are suggesting that a stand against torture (and criminality in the case of prison rapes) would get me killed by the parents? If that were true, then they are barbarians also and I lay the burden of their children's death at their own feet. What you are essentially suggesting is that you, me, the parents, and everyone else should think like we were a bunch of biker gang bangers. If you want to be a beast then feel free. I think I'll pass. At least some of the parents are in agreement with me.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to Just0Plain0Mike)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Got off too easy? - 12/17/2012 5:03:45 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Just0Plain0Mike

I just got bitched at for being bloodthirsty and sadistic, just like all the other gun-nuts, because I suggested that the shooter in Newtown got off too easy by shooting himself. I suggested that he deserved to get the death penalty and spend the next 10-15 years while awaiting his execution getting what he deserves from his fellow inmates. Since he's already dead, I really hope there's a Hell so he can burn for eternity.

So, anyone? Any non-gun-nuts think he got off too easily?

No human being deserves to be beaten and raped by others, no matter what he has done.

To wish such a fate on someone who likely was seriously mentally ill just to fulfill your revenge fantasy is beyond repugnant.


Nice post Ken..... I am not against execution and such but there is a limit on how this should be done.

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: Got off too easy? - 12/17/2012 5:16:56 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: Just0Plain0Mike

8th Amendment, ok.

Prison is not a fun place to be. It's brutal and nasty, people are beaten, raped,and killed pretty regularly. This is especially bad for people convicted of crimes against children. I suggested he got off easy by killing himself, and that he deserved to spend time in prison awaiting execution for his crimes. (Although just found out CT abolished the death penalty in April.) Now by equating this to an 8th Amendment violation, you're implying that no one can be sent to prison, because it's too brutal.

If he'd have lived, he'd be in prison. No jury would have accepted an insanity plea in a case like this. So, I'm a sick, psycho bastard for suggesting that a person who killed 20 CHILDREN be sent to prison? All I did was further state that he would have had a very bad time of it. That's not a situation of my making, it's just what would have happened unless he was held in segregation for life.


No, what I am saying is that, by saying ....

quote:

I suggested that he deserved to get the death penalty and spend the next 10-15 years while awaiting his execution getting what he deserves from his fellow inmates.


... was wrong and clearly against the intent of the 8th.



The average time spent on death row is 10 years, sometimes as long as 20

Contrary to what is wished for an inmate on death row (abuse at the hands of other prisoners) death row inmates are seperated from gen pop and each other, they are allowed 1 hour in a concrete walled enclosure to get outside.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Got off too easy? - 12/17/2012 5:36:00 PM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Just0Plain0Mike

I just got bitched at for being bloodthirsty and sadistic, just like all the other gun-nuts, because I suggested that the shooter in Newtown got off too easy by shooting himself. I suggested that he deserved to get the death penalty and spend the next 10-15 years while awaiting his execution getting what he deserves from his fellow inmates. Since he's already dead, I really hope there's a Hell so he can burn for eternity.

So, anyone? Any non-gun-nuts think he got off too easily?



I'm not sure I understand the point of hurting him.

I'm not sure what the answer is, but trying to get a pound of flesh from someone makes no sense at this point. While I'm sorry that we won't be able to try to understand his diseased brain now, at least we won't waste money on motions, appeals, counterappeals, etc.

The guy was insane. Horrible consequences for his actions wouldn't be a disincentive.

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to Just0Plain0Mike)
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RE: Got off too easy? - 12/17/2012 5:42:07 PM   
NuevaVida


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Joined: 8/5/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


To wish such a fate on someone who likely was seriously mentally ill just to fulfill your revenge fantasy is beyond repugnant.

This.

And what a friend posted on her facebook last Friday:

"Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death."

I'm not Catholic. Not even Christian. But I agree with the point.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Got off too easy? - 12/17/2012 5:58:33 PM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline 		From a mom interviewed on CNN, whose little girl Grace was killed:

"We can not live with hate. Grace did not have an ounce of hate and we can not respond with hate."

OK Paraphrased, because my short term memory is shot, but that's her message.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to NuevaVida)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Got off too easy? - 12/17/2012 6:01:27 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

The average time spent on death row is 10 years, sometimes as long as 20

Contrary to what is wished for an inmate on death row (abuse at the hands of other prisoners) death row inmates are seperated from gen pop and each other, they are allowed 1 hour in a concrete walled enclosure to get outside.


And?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Got off too easy? - 12/17/2012 6:12:57 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Just0Plain0Mike


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
I'm willing to say it anywhere at any time. I'm not a sniveling xoward who needs fantasies of some mentally ill person being beaten and raped to comfort me.


Says the guy spouting off in an internet forum.

Spouting off is not how I would characterize Ken's posts,on th other hand there are a few here who I do feel are doing nothing but "spout off"
Care to take a guess of who I have in mind right now ?

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: Got off too easy? - 12/17/2012 6:14:21 PM   
slvemike4u


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From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Just0Plain0Mike


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
I'm willing to say it anywhere at any time. I'm not a sniveling xoward who needs fantasies of some mentally ill person being beaten and raped to comfort me.


Says the guy spouting off in an internet forum.

Ken rarely"spouts off"
Do we have posters who spout off a bit...yeah,we do.
Care to guess who I think is doing some spouting off on this thread ?

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to Just0Plain0Mike)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Got off too easy? - 12/17/2012 6:16:10 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

My suggestion would be to read the 8th Amendment again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution#Cruel_and_unusual_punishments

No,no,no...it's only the Second Amendment that is sacrosanct.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Got off too easy? - 12/17/2012 7:31:35 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

The average time spent on death row is 10 years, sometimes as long as 20

Contrary to what is wished for an inmate on death row (abuse at the hands of other prisoners) death row inmates are seperated from gen pop and each other, they are allowed 1 hour in a concrete walled enclosure to get outside.


And?


That is, IMO, cruel and unusual. I could not get an average on how many times the average death row inmate is moved to the death cell in preparation for execution, but I know in one case in Texas it was 10 times, with the closest to execution the call came in was about 2 minutes.

That in my opinion is psychological torture.

Wouldnt you agree?

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Got off too easy? - 12/17/2012 7:34:05 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u


quote:

ORIGINAL: Just0Plain0Mike


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
I'm willing to say it anywhere at any time. I'm not a sniveling xoward who needs fantasies of some mentally ill person being beaten and raped to comfort me.


Says the guy spouting off in an internet forum.

Spouting off is not how I would characterize Ken's posts,on th other hand there are a few here who I do feel are doing nothing but "spout off"
Care to take a guess of who I have in mind right now ?



I will make a deal with you mike, you figure out how to get rid of every legal (inspite of the NRA battalion of lawyers) and every illegal gun in the hands of criminals and I will gladly give up mine. I can hunt just as well with a bow and cross bow.

Why punish the law abiding for the actions of a few mentally unbalanced individuals?

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Got off too easy? - 12/18/2012 12:49:02 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

The average time spent on death row is 10 years, sometimes as long as 20

Contrary to what is wished for an inmate on death row (abuse at the hands of other prisoners) death row inmates are seperated from gen pop and each other, they are allowed 1 hour in a concrete walled enclosure to get outside.


And?


That is, IMO, cruel and unusual. I could not get an average on how many times the average death row inmate is moved to the death cell in preparation for execution, but I know in one case in Texas it was 10 times, with the closest to execution the call came in was about 2 minutes.

That in my opinion is psychological torture.

Wouldnt you agree?


I wouldnt agree. Im sorry. They are kept as safe as possible. They chose the crimes they committed. The run the appeals. The system only has to keep them safe.

The "essential predicate" is "that a punishment must not by its severity be degrading to human dignity," especially torture.
"A severe punishment that is obviously inflicted in wholly arbitrary fashion."
"A severe punishment that is clearly and totally rejected throughout society."
"A severe punishment that is patently unnecessary."

That fits every one of the parameters. Its not degrading to human dignity. Its a sentence that is carried out with everyone who is in the same position. Its necessary to the inmates health and welfare. Torture would be putting the inmate into the general population at the whim of anyone there.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 39
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