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Level -> European Union (11/18/2012 7:11:56 AM)
Has there been any benefit to any of the nations in the EU, being in said union? Would they be better calling it a day?

Yachtie -> RE: European Union (11/18/2012 7:17:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Level Has there been any benefit to any of the nations in the EU, being in said union? Would they be better calling it a day? The sooner the better. edit: One thing I did not mention in the other thread is immigration. It too is having an effect. I've read a few articles of how Muslim immigrants want to be legally judged via Sharia Law. Do the French want to incorporate Sharia into their body of Law? How about the Belgians? Germans? British? Would diversity and tolerance not be so inclusive as to incorporate foreign Law and even foreign customs into its legal and social fabric? Why has the Burka garnered so much attention in France and England? Is it possible for a Muslim immigrant to actually be what is known to be British? Is it being British to attend Islamic Mosques? Are Islamic customs compatible with British tradition? How much immigration can a nation absorb without its national identity being so altered as to be at some future point unrecognizable? Is it the duty of a nation to willfully accept such change? In Islamic countries are Western customs and culture accepted? How about British Law? Is the mini-skirt celebrated? I choose Muslim immigrants as their introduction into western society is most visible. I remember seeing photos of the recent Royal wedding in England. I thought it so odd not a single Burka was waving a Union Jack, these immigrants having moved to Britain, ostensibly I'd have to believe, because they wished to be British.

dcnovice -> RE: European Union (11/18/2012 7:39:18 AM)
FR I'm no EU expert, but its members' "revealed preference" (to borrow a term from my economist friends) appears to be for continued union, given that no one's broken away so far. That might suggest that they see benefits to the arrangement, even if things are rocky at the present. But I'll defer to our European posters on this one. Has there been any warfare between EU members? I don't think so, but I'm not positive. If peace has indeed prevailed, that would seem a huge improvement on what Europe endured in the 20th century.

Yachtie -> RE: European Union (11/18/2012 7:42:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice If peace has indeed prevailed, that would seem a huge improvement on what Europe endured in the 20th century. Most heartily agree on that point.

DarkSteven -> RE: European Union (11/18/2012 7:43:35 AM)
I spoke to someone about that. While it has been pretty awful from the financial POV, it has provided a strong disincentive for any military action between European nations.

graceadieu -> RE: European Union (11/18/2012 7:56:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice Has there been any warfare between EU members? I don't think so, but I'm not positive. If peace has indeed prevailed, that would seem a huge improvement on what Europe endured in the 20th century. No, there hasn't. Actually the only wars in Europe since WWII have been former Soviet Bloc countries breaking away from the USSR, and the conflicts in the Balkans as Yugoslavia broke up. None of them were EU members at the time. Also, the common currency has allowed the EU to act as one big economy, which I think was a pretty deal good for them until the recession when some of the less developed countries they let in just couldn't hang.

Level -> RE: European Union (11/18/2012 8:00:51 AM)
Yachtie - I do see the frequent lack of integration of muslims as problematic; they do seem to often have a disdain for the culture they've chosen to live in, and a desire to see it change for them, rather than vice versa. dc and Steven - do you feel there would have been a higher risk of war in Europe, had there been no EU? Or would the lessons learned from the two WWs, and partnerships in NATO achieved the same?

Yachtie -> RE: European Union (11/18/2012 9:08:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Level Yachtie - I do see the frequent lack of integration of muslims as problematic; they do seem to often have a disdain for the culture they've chosen to live in, and a desire to see it change for them, rather than vice versa. Wouldn't that be expected? It's difficult, if not even impossible, to fully adopt the norms of the chosen society. As to Muslims, how can even their religious beliefs and practices find integration where those beliefs and practices are diametrically opposed to the social fabric of their chosen country? To discard the Burka would be tantamount to discarding Islam. Immigrant teaches child who teaches child who teaches child... You get the idea. It takes a very long time for integration, where the last vestiges have been thrown off and one is of the culture. For this reason immigration needs to be highly curtailed. It's quite apparent that where immigration exceeds that level capable of assimilation the host culture shall change. Some of the host country desire such. The US is not immune either. It's one thing to say the US is an immigrant society. While by definition that has some truth to it, in actuality the major flavor that the US was based upon was English. The US most certainly has its own culture and it too is now under threat of massive change. Many applaud that.

Politesub53 -> RE: European Union (11/18/2012 9:51:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie quote: ORIGINAL: Level Has there been any benefit to any of the nations in the EU, being in said union? Would they be better calling it a day? The sooner the better. edit: One thing I did not mention in the other thread is immigration. It too is having an effect. I've read a few articles of how Muslim immigrants want to be legally judged via Sharia Law. Do the French want to incorporate Sharia into their body of Law? How about the Belgians? Germans? British? Would diversity and tolerance not be so inclusive as to incorporate foreign Law and even foreign customs into its legal and social fabric? Why has the Burka garnered so much attention in France and England? Is it possible for a Muslim immigrant to actually be what is known to be British? Is it being British to attend Islamic Mosques? Are Islamic customs compatible with British tradition? How much immigration can a nation absorb without its national identity being so altered as to be at some future point unrecognizable? Is it the duty of a nation to willfully accept such change? In Islamic countries are Western customs and culture accepted? How about British Law? Is the mini-skirt celebrated? I choose Muslim immigrants as their introduction into western society is most visible. I remember seeing photos of the recent Royal wedding in England. I thought it so odd not a single Burka was waving a Union Jack, these immigrants having moved to Britain, ostensibly I'd have to believe, because they wished to be British. Ah yes, another chance at some Muslim bashing...... As per usual you are spouting rubbish, scaremongering at best and ignorance at worst. You base your view of the EU upon your own predjudices regards Muslims without even checking the facts. You are too stupid or too lazy to use google and establish the truth. https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=muslims+in+the+uk+celebrate+royal+wedding&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=hyU&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&prmd=imvns&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=qx-pUJKJJYrM0AX83ICoCA&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAQ&biw=1208&bih=773

Thaz -> RE: European Union (11/18/2012 10:08:36 AM)
The entire idea pf Sharia law in the Uk is faintly silly. Yes you can choose to have a Sharia law style mediator settle a suit for you out of court. Just like you can have Judge Judi do it for you in the US. You can have your priest, the pub landlord or anyone both parties respect and agree do that. It's NOT the law and isnt binding. Ie if your local Iman can get both parties to agree to settle out of court then cool. Jewish Rabbi's have been doing this in London's east end for hundreds of years. Some of them gainign such a reputation for fairness that non Jews decided to make use of the service (as its cheaper than courts and lawyers). If a local Iman gets a simmilar rep for fairness then whats the issue. Non integration with host nation and customs is altogether another issue and IS possibly serious. As to the EU? Well we havent had to go to war with each other since have we? And some of the polcies of Brussels and our MEP's ahve been seriously better than those for London. The FISCAL union of the Euro has a lot going for it. The Germans for example LOVE how teh Greeks drag the value down...as lots less people would buy beamers if they had to pay in DM at true value....

Politesub53 -> RE: European Union (11/18/2012 10:29:54 AM)
Good post Thaz. I have lost count of how often I mention that Sharia based mediators are not legal in the UK, as well as the fact those of the Jewish faith have similar mediators. Sadly it doesnt sink in, probably since it doesnt uphold the absurd idea of Muslims taking over the EU.

Aswad -> RE: European Union (11/18/2012 10:30:19 AM)
Politesub, you might want to link directly, because a search on Google will depend on what you normally read. This issue was raised in connection with the attacks over here, because it turns out that the results of a search are dramatically different on the computer of a right winger, compared to that of a left winger. For instance, since I have recently spent some time debunking the claims of some far right extremists with actual research, Google Images mostly shows me rioting Muslims and jihadi violence when I run the same search you linked here. If I clear everything in my browser and use a proxy, I will probably see what you intended me to see. It's one of the most dangerous influences Google has on the modern world, by both being the go-to place for casual searches and also one of the most active purveyors of confirmation bias out there. They add a whole new dimension of destructive feedback, above and beyond what even Fox and the like are able to, because people assume they're getting the same information as everyone else, when in fact Google is making a living off providing people with confirmation of their worldview, tracking that worldview no matter how skewed it gets. Indeed, far right extremists' closest ally is Google, which is deliciously ironic, because Google itself leans heavily in the opposite direction. For neutral content, Wikipedia is actually closer, and even that is based on a consensus that is heavily influenced by Google and the media (indeed, the term "google test" was pretty damn prevalent on WP back when I was a regular contributor). IWYW, — Aswad.

Politesub53 -> RE: European Union (11/18/2012 10:34:05 AM)
Thanks for the heads up Aswad. That would explain some of the crap the far right here post as news. My link was one showing the many Muslims who celebrated the Royal Wedding, burkas alongside Union Jacks.

stellauk -> RE: European Union (11/18/2012 10:38:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie Are Islamic customs compatible with British tradition? Yes we drink tea, eat curry, and enjoy the odd kebab and turkish delight. quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie How much immigration can a nation absorb without its national identity being so altered as to be at some future point unrecognizable? Most of the immigration is in London (around 25% of the UK population in its metropolitan area) and larger cities. Away from large towns and cities the UK is predominantly white and native. Also, do you have a television? Similar to the US, it's possible to get a grasp of how life is like in the UK from our television output. quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie Is it the duty of a nation to willfully accept such change? The duty of the nation? I don't follow.. quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie In Islamic countries are Western customs and culture accepted? Yes, for example in Morocco, Tunisia, Libya, Kazachstan, Kygyristan, Turkey, and quite a few other countries. quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie How about British Law? Is the mini-skirt celebrated? Probably more like appreciated by almost anyone with a dick. quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie I choose Muslim immigrants as their introduction into western society is most visible. I remember seeing photos of the recent Royal wedding in England. I thought it so odd not a single Burka was waving a Union Jack, these immigrants having moved to Britain, ostensibly I'd have to believe, because they wished to be British. No because they were too busy selling newspapers, flags, ice creams, kebabs, and doing other stuff like driving mini cabs, buses, and so on.

Thaz -> RE: European Union (11/18/2012 10:45:49 AM)
As a matter of fact I work with several folks of ethnic decent (not to mention hordes of imported guys and girls from Mumbai currently on contract. In fact I shall be hosting one all of next week as a manager from our off-shore support partner visits) who were very big into waving the Union Flag. We white brits love a curry but a lot of our Indian friends love a pint and a pasty also. :-) And the first thing the lady from Mumbai wants to do is go horse riding in the British Countryside and then go for a pint at my local pub. So yeah. Not so much. Sure there are some scary radical types out there. I've also met a few scary ass skinheads. They do not represent the majority.

TheHeretic -> RE: European Union (11/18/2012 10:45:57 AM)
Level, as long as they are meeting the treaty obligations, not giving terrorists passports, or creating an illegal flood of economic refugees to our shores, other countries can do exactly as they please. Outside of the odd harping on human rights abuses when the mood strikes me, I have no opinion on their daily specifics. Big picture, I like the idea of the EU. If they are all in bed together, and completely stuck with each other, it reduces the chances that our country will ever have to send more American soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines to get killed, cleaning their house for them.

Politesub53 -> RE: European Union (11/18/2012 10:47:56 AM)
http://www.rabwah.net/ahmadiyya-muslim-community-celebrates-the-royal-wedding/ http://menmedia.co.uk/asiannews/news/s/1419181_north-west-muslims-get-ready-to-celebrate-royal-wedding http://tsu-doh-nimh.blogspot.co.uk/2011/05/royal-wedding-street-party-on-royal.html http://www.mcb.org.uk/media/presstext.php?ann_id=443 http://ahmadiyya.org.uk/mosques_uk/2011/04/28/london-s-oldest-mosque-to-hold-royal-wedding-celebration-0-13134/

Politesub53 -> RE: European Union (11/18/2012 10:51:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic Level, as long as they are meeting the treaty obligations, not giving terrorists passports, or creating an illegal flood of economic refugees to our shores, other countries can do exactly as they please. Outside of the odd harping on human rights abuses when the mood strikes me, I have no opinion on their daily specifics. Big picture, I like the idea of the EU. If they are all in bed together, and completely stuck with each other, it reduces the chances that our country will ever have to send more American soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines to get killed, cleaning their house for them. Your post started so well Rich........ This "we cleaned house" bullshit is tiresome and incorrect.

Thaz -> RE: European Union (11/18/2012 10:52:58 AM)
Agreed. Europe is a huge chunk of the worlds economy and millitary might. We're also frightningly good at war (jokes about the French and Italians aside), British inventiveness and insanity mixed with German efficency and courage is a truely dangerous combo. Having the Germans and French locked onto in a mutal system of government and the Brits locked in economically means we're much less likely to nuke the living ** out of each other or someone who looked at us sideways in the pub, er UN. The Russians are pretty happy as long as we let them run their own show and not threaten them to much (I mean they had a bad history of people deciding to take their homeland, no wonder they are as paranoid as a rabbit in a fox fur farm) and the Chineese want the status quo left as is as they're doing pretty well thanks. Now if we could just stop poking our collective Western Dicks into the Middle Eastern mess........I mean guys DONT * CRAZY!!!!

TheHeretic -> RE: European Union (11/18/2012 11:04:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 This "we cleaned house" bullshit is tiresome and incorrect. I'd say tell it to my grandfather, if he hadn't been dead for a dozen years, but we still have the pictures from his time assigned as a guard at Nuremberg in the family archives. Done here, and wishing you all a good conversation. [:)] Thaz, you are damn right about the ME.

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