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RE: It's the victims fault? - 9/2/2012 3:03:31 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: calamitysandra
Well, this certainly does explain a lot:


That's how Father O'Grady got away with molesting children for over 20 years. He kept getting caught and sent to therapy and monsters like this guy kept sending him back to rape more children.

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RE: It's the victims fault? - 9/2/2012 3:26:55 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		I have cousins that actually left the church and became Lutheran or some such over the molestation issue.

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RE: It's the victims fault? - 9/3/2012 5:11:55 AM   
calamitysandra


Posts: 1682
Joined: 3/17/2006
Status: offline 		While I have not been a Christian for a good long while now (I left the catholic church when I was 15), my husband was still seeing himself vaguely as a Christian, and as he was raised catholic, this was where he stayed.

Our sons were baptised according to my husbands wishes, as I felt it would do them no harm.

When Oldest was up for his First Communion he decided at the outset that he wanted to do it, and as a family we supported his decision.
Midway through the preparation process the scandal about a holocaust denier being admitted back into the fold broke. After some deliberation Oldest decided not to go through with the communion, telling us that there was no way he wanted to be associated with that. We supported this decision as well.

Middle child would be up for starting first communion prep this year, but after the additional scandals breaking in the last years I have put my foot down. I am not raising a child in this church. If as a grown man he wants to, he can still receive the sacrament and resume his membership.

My husband has been finally pushed over his limit too, leaving the church for good as well.

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RE: It's the victims fault? - 9/3/2012 6:37:32 AM   
DarkSteven


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Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline 		The Church has the potential for doing so much good, and so much evil. It's a shame that they've had Nazi sympathy creeping back in, as well as covered up the molestations. Hopefully Sandra's family will be joined by enough voting feet to give the Church the smack in the head they need to become a true representative of G-d again.

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The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

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RE: It's the victims fault? - 9/3/2012 6:56:46 AM   
ClassIsInSession


Posts: 305
Joined: 7/26/2010
Status: offline 		Integrity and honesty seem to have gone to the wayside, not only in churches, but in schools, business, socially...pretty much every facet of our culture, and I think the general lack of accountability is to blame for many of the problems in this world. I think before we can solve any other problem, we need to be addressing this issue, because without truth and integrity, communication becomes a means of deception and misdirection rather than the illuminating gift it should be. If you can't communicate effectively, trying to solve problems becomes more of a mystery. Labels have a dictionary meaning, then a fluid, deceptive meaning. All too much sleight of hand...

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RE: It's the victims fault? - 9/3/2012 7:43:53 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

he accidentally stated what a sadly large amount of catholic rank and file think


How can you substantiate such an outrageous statement? You are accusing millions without basis in fact.

No one can deny the problems of the church but to say a large number of the rank and file of Catholics believe that children seduce priests is just showing prejudice.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 9/3/2012 7:45:21 AM >

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RE: It's the victims fault? - 9/3/2012 1:32:56 PM   
calamitysandra


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

he accidentally stated what a sadly large amount of catholic rank and file think


How can you substantiate such an outrageous statement? You are accusing millions without basis in fact.

No one can deny the problems of the church but to say a large number of the rank and file of Catholics believe that children seduce priests is just showing prejudice.

Butch


Look at the way abuse cases have been treated.
Can you really state that the way the church reacted shows that they accept the culpability of the priests and are sensitive to the needs of the victims?

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RE: It's the victims fault? - 9/3/2012 3:24:02 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus
I have cousins that actually left the church and became Lutheran or some such over the molestation issue.


Everybody should.

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RE: It's the victims fault? - 9/3/2012 3:59:41 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

Look at the way abuse cases have been treated.
Can you really state that the way the church reacted shows that they accept the culpability of the priests and are sensitive to the needs of the victims?


So this condemns the rank and file to be complicit in child molestation? The church leadership OK but not Catholics in general.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: It's the victims fault? - 9/3/2012 4:28:10 PM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		I cant buy that Steven. This has been going on since before JP II was born, let alone became Pope. Hillwill was probably right in saying centuaries.

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RE: It's the victims fault? - 9/3/2012 4:34:19 PM   
fucktoyprincess


Posts: 2337
Status: offline 		Given the perspective of perpetrators of sexual crimes and of society at large, this should not really be a surprise to anyone. "Blame the victim" has been around for a long time. Obviously, first applied to women, but this is just an extension of the same sort of thinking that wants us to all believe that men simply can't control themselves. It is a perspective that I find equally insulting to men, women and children. Anyone, regardless of their gender or age, should be able to see how stupid a "blame the victim" perspective is, and yet, it persists...

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RE: It's the victims fault? - 9/3/2012 5:03:50 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Look at the way abuse cases have been treated.
Can you really state that the way the church reacted shows that they accept the culpability of the priests and are sensitive to the needs of the victims?


So this condemns the rank and file to be complicit in child molestation? The church leadership OK but not Catholics in general.

Butch


Yes, I think it does condemn the rank and file of the Catholic Church, Butch. It's up to the rank and file to hold their churchmen to account.

I'm sorry if that's anathema to catholics who've been brought up to believe that their churchmen are fathers and they, the churchgoers, are these fathers' 'children' (or 'sheep' which is even more frigging nauseating) - but they've got to grow the fuck up and stop making an asinine virtue out of this infantilism that keeps them so stupidly happy while at the same time allowing their 'daddies', the priests, to fuck up the lives of so many people.

Catholic churchgoers pay the wages of these evil, disgusting, perverted cunts, Butch. They need to develop the adult bollocks required in order to learn to control them. They need to stop being so stupidly, dangerously, childish.

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RE: It's the victims fault? - 9/3/2012 8:32:34 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

Yes, I think it does condemn the rank and file of the Catholic Church, Butch. It's up to the rank and file to hold their churchmen to account.


No more than you should be held accountable for the actions of your family, friends, or government...you do pay taxes don't you? Do you believe that Catholics, because of their belief in God, are all pedophiles or defenders of pedophiles? They are just as much in the dark about the actions of some priests as you and just as revolted.

I don’t think they deserve anymore blame then you or I… the only ones at fault are the priests and their superiors.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: It's the victims fault? - 9/3/2012 9:12:12 PM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

I cant buy that Steven. This has been going on since before JP II was born, let alone became Pope. Hillwill was probably right in saying centuaries.


Sure. The Church even collaborated with the Nazis. But JP II was a bright spot in an otherwise lackluster performance. I was hoping he would be a portent of things to come. Alas, he was simply an aberration.

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to Politesub53)
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RE: It's the victims fault? - 9/4/2012 6:00:22 AM   
calamitysandra


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Joined: 3/17/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Look at the way abuse cases have been treated.
Can you really state that the way the church reacted shows that they accept the culpability of the priests and are sensitive to the needs of the victims?


So this condemns the rank and file to be complicit in child molestation? The church leadership OK but not Catholics in general.

Butch


It condemns the rank and file that they stay often without even voicing objection to the way the church superiors deal with the child molestations.
Condoning the way church handles this seems like acceptance.

_____________________________

"Whenever people are laughing, they are generally not killing one another"
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RE: It's the victims fault? - 9/4/2012 5:24:52 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
Sure. The Church even collaborated with the Nazis. But JP II was a bright spot in an otherwise lackluster performance. I was hoping he would be a portent of things to come. Alas, he was simply an aberration.


I'm really hoping that the conservative push back that's let the inquisition run the show will end with the current pedo-pope.

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RE: It's the victims fault? - 9/4/2012 5:46:52 PM   
Politesub53


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Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Yes, I think it does condemn the rank and file of the Catholic Church, Butch. It's up to the rank and file to hold their churchmen to account.


No more than you should be held accountable for the actions of your family, friends, or government...you do pay taxes don't you? Do you believe that Catholics, because of their belief in God, are all pedophiles or defenders of pedophiles? They are just as much in the dark about the actions of some priests as you and just as revolted.

I don’t think they deserve anymore blame then you or I… the only ones at fault are the priests and their superiors.

Butch



True Butch, but large numbers of the rank and file either knew about it, or refused to think a Priest could be guilty of such a thing. Certainly those higher up not only thought it wasnt possible, but covered it up to avoid a scandal.

My brothers three kids were baptised as Catholic, as his wife had wished, they didnt attend Church thankfully. The Priest who baptised them was arrested for child abuse going back 20+ years soon afterwards. No one can tell me that the kids didnt tell a soul for all that time, not even once. Too many kids over too long a period. Whats worse is some of the last kids abused were actually taken to Church by a parent who had also been abused. The parent having been convinced "THEY" must have done something wrong, not the priest.

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RE: It's the victims fault? - 9/4/2012 5:51:16 PM   
GotSteel


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Joined: 2/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
quote:

Look at the way abuse cases have been treated.
Can you really state that the way the church reacted shows that they accept the culpability of the priests and are sensitive to the needs of the victims?

So this condemns the rank and file to be complicit in child molestation? The church leadership OK but not Catholics in general.


If we're blame storming, there's a great deal to go around. That said, yes everyone who supports this Pope (who's known to aid and abet pedophiles) shares some culpability for how things are.

Certainly not the sort of responsibility as the pedophiles, those who played shell games to hide the pedophiles, those who lied and concealed documents to aid the pedophiles, those who crafted policy to keep these crimes secret and threaten the victims or even those who knew specifics of what was going on and didn't call the cops.

But think about it, if Catholics in general said "fuck this we're going protestant" tonight, that would be the end of the whole dog and pony show. Catholics in general are what allows this organization to exist and as such they do bear responsibility for it.

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RE: It's the victims fault? - 9/4/2012 6:35:02 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

True Butch, but large numbers of the rank and file either knew about it



I just don't believe this...but of course I have no more proof to dispel it then you do to claim it. I am just going by peoples thoughts in general on the subject and thinking that Catholics are no different then most other people.

I also think you are wrong in believing that many abused boys have told many others. From the news stories I have heard these children were ashamed of their involvement with pedophile priests and said nothing for years. And only recently when the Church has been in the news have they the courage to come forward. This is common for many sexually abused children outside the church as well.

Please believe me when I say I am not defending the church. I am only defending the so called rank and file. The priesthood is such a closed dictatorial society that they were and are able to hide their involvement from their flocks. God may have mercy on them but I won't.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 9/4/2012 6:36:55 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: It's the victims fault? - 9/5/2012 5:41:03 AM   
calamitysandra


Posts: 1682
Joined: 3/17/2006
Status: offline 		My point is, Butch, that the rank and file is staying in the church now, after the scandals have gotten obvious. There is no large exodus of Catholics, saying "not in my name". That is a for of aiding and abetting.

_____________________________

"Whenever people are laughing, they are generally not killing one another"
Alan Alda


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Profile   Post #: 40
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