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I'm for America - 8/22/2012 7:48:18 AM   
OttersSwim


Posts: 2860
Joined: 9/1/2008
Status: offline 		So I know that every now and again, someone comes into this forum and tries to convince people to tone down their rhetoric and come together and sing Kumbayah in hopes of having better, more fruitful discussions that don't just end up where they started with nothing and no one changed in any way.

Welcome to my attempt.

Our threads in this forum are so littered with the "righty" / "lefty" rhetoric that the actual dialog very often gets lost. It seems that we have subdivided ourselves by these two categories and demonized those on the other side. And listen, it is easy to do and I am as guilty of it as anyone and I own that.

There seems to rarely be any real ability to actually have your viewpiont considered by the other side. Further, our critical thinking skills - to actually examine something and give it a real critical eye - even if it is purporting to support our point of view - seems lost. We end up with a bunch of stuff here that is not really truth, it is just spin.

We aren't going to necessarily change our views, but if we were to actually put aside the sabres rattling in our heads and try to see what the other person is saying, and give it and trying to understand why they think what they think, and not think that they are un-American just for holding that view.

So I wanted to encourage us all to approach things from the concept of "How is this good/bad for America, and how is this good/bad for me or those I love."

The people we discuss things with on these forums are Countrymen and women who love their country and for the most part actually think that their views are correct. I think we sometimes lose that in the back and forth accusations and stump statements.

Hello all you hot and juicy foreigners! Whether you are from Canada, the UK, or elsewhere, I thank you for being in this forum and encourage you to give your perspectives in the same light because you add an interesting "world perspective" that I think enriches the dialog.

Anyhoo...that's my attempt. Have a good day all!


< Message edited by OttersSwim -- 8/22/2012 7:50:24 AM >

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RE: I'm for America - 8/22/2012 7:51:27 AM   
Lucylastic


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I really am enjoying your posting OttersSwim

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RE: I'm for America - 8/22/2012 7:54:16 AM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		Alas, it's a couple of posters who are making everything including the weather nothing but knee-jerk R vs. D.

As long as they're here, that's not going to change; they actually like making forums this way.

A couple others are devoted to peddling their tinfoil. Also not likely to go away.

I agree it's a shame. Real debates are far more interesting and instructive; I've been known to change my mind, and to change minds.


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RE: I'm for America - 8/22/2012 7:54:47 AM   
Owner59


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My split, is rightie and wrongie....

My bias is sunlight,MORE info, the WHOLE story being told and issues thoroughly being examined.

I couldn`t care less how it breaks down, party-wise.



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RE: I'm for America - 8/22/2012 8:08:46 AM   
OttersSwim


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Status: offline 		I will agree that there are some folk out there with some extreme views, and it is my view that you may never change them.

As for those that get off just stirring the pot..well, welcome to the Internets.

Seems the forum norm is all about posting "sources" - which I think is good. But we also need, IMO, to remember to ask the other poster "Why do you believe/feel that way?", and give them a chance to express their view. Seems we too often simply pop in our stump reply or make a accusation of bias and think that is sufficient. Of course they are biased, it is how they think/believe/feel... Hopefully they will do the same in return.

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RE: I'm for America - 8/22/2012 8:26:48 AM   
RemoteUser


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Status: offline 		It's true that the forums get bogged down with conjecture that draws from the topic at hand, in general (let alone here). It's always nice to see when the effort is made, though.

Thank you for the post, OP.

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RE: I'm for America - 8/22/2012 8:59:41 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

I will agree that there are some folk out there with some extreme views, and it is my view that you may never change them.

As for those that get off just stirring the pot..well, welcome to the Internets.

Seems the forum norm is all about posting "sources" - which I think is good. But we also need, IMO, to remember to ask the other poster "Why do you believe/feel that way?", and give them a chance to express their view. Seems we too often simply pop in our stump reply or make a accusation of bias and think that is sufficient. Of course they are biased, it is how they think/believe/feel... Hopefully they will do the same in return.

Yes, as well as the delusion that if one finds a source that says it, the argument is over, without separating credible factual sources from opinion and editorial.

Then there are those that deny the official sources as reliable, leaving nothing but their opinion as "authority." Not much you can do about that except laugh.

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RE: I'm for America - 8/22/2012 10:02:11 AM   
MariaB


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Status: offline 		Hi Otter, Im from the UK so for me this isn't about debating American politics but about debating world politics.
All of us who debate on internet forums are 'armchair sluthes'. There is an awful lot of people, spending far too much time, scribbling away (without payment I should add) on forums like this, trying to convince and educate one another!
One can feel the frustration on the political forums. Everyone wants to get their opinion across and nobody wants to listen because they are all too busy thinking about what they are going to say next! Political forums are always dog eat dog.
There is one blogger on here who perpetually copies and pastes entire valuable links but hardly ever gives us the sauce to that link. I don't think its plagiarism, just ignorance. There is David Shayler types who get hugely irritated by rationality because a world without conspiracy is so very dull! and there are some pretty big narcissistic egos flying around too (but then that's a given when it comes to politics

I like to think that I'm an Agatha Christie type and that I can look at both sides of an argument and perhaps come up with a reasonable conclusion, if there is a conclusion to be had that is! but that of course depends on the subject matter. If the debate is about something I am well versed on. A subject I have talked about umpteen times with interested peers, then I may come over as some bull headed know it all.... Angry frustration can give off such symptoms. If, on the other hand, I have picked up a topic I know little about, googled some more info on it and perhaps spent an hour doing a little research on the subject matter before going on to make some comment on the boards. I may well later regret that comment and agree with those who have corrected me.

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RE: I'm for America - 8/22/2012 10:15:34 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Hi there…I think you are wrong on a few of your points.

First we come here for fun not to solve the world's problems. Fun often means a little spirited conversation…I like it and would miss it if things became too strict and…well… gentle.

Second I also think that what is said in the forums may be controversial and confrontational at times but it is information and I have learned,. Just the act of being forced to back up opinions and search the net for information is educational. And finally often times when tempers cool and the debate is over what others say does on occasion sneak and seep into my overloaded undernourished brain.

Butch

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RE: I'm for America - 8/22/2012 10:22:01 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim
"righty" / "lefty" rhetoric

this and the D/R divide in the US is (imo) what will be the downfall of the US.. the country is totally bogged down and will be, I think for decades more... i just see the economy as it basically is now, like a bottle cork bobbing along on the water but not really going anywhere.. The US is a country with no real direction..

As non-American, I feel its up to Americans to do whatever they feel is right for them (just as it is up to me to do what is right for me).. one thing I hate tho, is when the US govt tries, in various ways, to impose its way & its will on the rest of the world..



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RE: I'm for America - 8/22/2012 10:31:35 AM   
Musicmystery


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Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Well, right now it's an R/R/R divide, with the rightest of the rights trying to assert both its power and the perception that its the entire party.

Ironic, given the very wide range among Democrats, from quite conservative to quite progressive. Presenting that as a single "D" is a huge myth.

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RE: I'm for America - 8/22/2012 10:33:20 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Well, right now it's an R/R/R divide, with the rightest of the rights trying to assert both its power and the perception that its the entire party.

Ironic, given the very wide range among Democrats, from quite conservative to quite progressive. Presenting that as a single "D" is a huge myth.

there are only those 2 choices (R or D) in the voting booth..

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RE: I'm for America - 8/22/2012 10:35:14 AM   
MariaB


Posts: 2969
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		Oh I think a lot of people come here because they are addicted to forums. I'm a reformed addict myself. There was a time when I skipped work so I could come on this site. I look back at some of my older posts, the ones I made when I was a 'Collarholic' and they are ridiculously confrontational, bitchy and unreasonable. If you had asked me at the time if I found all this fun, without doubt I would of said, 'yes'.
Spirited conversations are all well and good. I'm all for a good healthy spirited conversation but observe how much stress is going on in certain forums. Observe how much time some people take to perpetually get their word across and how upset people become when someone they consider an online friend, disagrees with them.

I agree about having to back up ones opinions by further research and how further research is educational. Today I learnt about the Nazi experiments on fear and fertility. Its not something I had ever heard of before and made for some interesting scientific reading.

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RE: I'm for America - 8/22/2012 10:36:36 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Well, right now it's an R/R/R divide, with the rightest of the rights trying to assert both its power and the perception that its the entire party.

Ironic, given the very wide range among Democrats, from quite conservative to quite progressive. Presenting that as a single "D" is a huge myth.

there are only those 2 choices (R or D) in the voting booth..

Then this shouldn't be a mystery to you.

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RE: I'm for America - 8/22/2012 10:41:05 AM   
OttersSwim


Posts: 2860
Joined: 9/1/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Hi there…I think you are wrong on a few of your points.

First we come here for fun not to solve the world's problems. Fun often means a little spirited conversation…I like it and would miss it if things became too strict and…well… gentle.

Second I also think that what is said in the forums may be controversial and confrontational at times but it is information and I have learned,. Just the act of being forced to back up opinions and search the net for information is educational. And finally often times when tempers cool and the debate is over what others say does on occasion sneak and seep into my overloaded undernourished brain.

Butch


Fair enough.

First, I am glad to hear someone else say that they have learned things by engaging in these discussions, and that you are here to have fun. It is something that can get missed, especially when you perceive that half of the leaders in the United States are trying to legislate certain people out of existence. If you find yourself among those classes of people, the concept of fun is hard to see around the hardcore implications of what will happen in November and beyond.

Finally, I am all for spirited conversations, just tired of page after page of recriminations and left/right stump statements that really don't further the dialog nor lead to anyone being enlightened (or even having the opportunity) as once we get to that point, everyone is in their corner and the walls are up and the mods might as well shut the thread down.

Thanks for the great replies everyone!

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RE: I'm for America - 8/22/2012 10:44:14 AM   
tj444


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Joined: 3/7/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Well, right now it's an R/R/R divide, with the rightest of the rights trying to assert both its power and the perception that its the entire party.

Ironic, given the very wide range among Democrats, from quite conservative to quite progressive. Presenting that as a single "D" is a huge myth.

there are only those 2 choices (R or D) in the voting booth..

Then this shouldn't be a mystery to you.

lol Its not a mystery to me, but its why I see the US as a country divided and a country with no real direction.. and that is not likely to change any time soon..

< Message edited by tj444 -- 8/22/2012 10:47:25 AM >

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RE: I'm for America - 8/22/2012 10:59:47 AM   
kdsub


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Joined: 8/16/2007
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quote:

how upset people become when someone they consider an online friend, disagrees with them.


I do understand the above statement...I have experienced this more than once in this forum.

I have always separated how I think of someone in general by their stance on particular issues. I assumed others did the same but found out real quick this is not the case. Some people are not tolerant of other opinions and ideas that conflict with their own.

Myself I tend to like people with opposing views… they are more interesting.

Butch

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RE: I'm for America - 8/22/2012 11:47:12 AM   
DarkSteven


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Status: offline 		We're all for America. The problem is when we see our own vision of America as the only viable model.

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RE: I'm for America - 8/22/2012 11:52:01 AM   
Hillwilliam


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Status: offline 		The title is one reason I detest all this "Hyphenated-American" bullcrap.

What ever happened to American Americans?

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RE: I'm for America - 8/22/2012 11:53:37 AM   
LadyHibiscus


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Status: offline 		I have always described myself as Italian. No hyphen.

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