RE: Ryan Co-Sponsored Todd ‘Legit Rape’ Akin Bill To Redefine Rape (Full Version)

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kalikshama -> RE: Ryan Co-Sponsored Todd ‘Legit Rape’ Akin Bill To Redefine Rape (8/21/2012 10:11:01 AM)

Paul Ryan, Troy Akin, John Boehner, and 200 other Republicans sought to bring us back to the 1887 definition of rape:

John Boehner's push to redefine rape

Banning publicly funded abortions for victims of "non-forcible" rape is one of the House speaker's top priorities

...First, there are the people who would be overtly denied coverage, as outlined by Nick Baumann at Mother Jones. Those who were raped while drugged or unconscious, or through means of coercion, would not be covered. Survivors of statutory rape would not be covered: “if a minor,” one is only covered in case of incest. And if one is a survivor of incest, and not a minor, that’s also not covered. Studies of how rapists find and subdue victims reveal that about 70 percent of rapes wouldn’t fall under the “forcible” designation.

Which leaves us with those rapes that could be construed as “forcible.” Except that this clause doesn’t guarantee an exemption for them, either. The term “forcible rape” actually has no set meaning; legal definitions of “force” vary widely. And every survivor who finds herself in need of abortion funding will have to submit her rape for government approval.

H.R. 3′s language brings us back to an ancient, long-outdated standard of rape law: “Utmost resistance.” By this standard, a rape verdict depended not on whether the victim consented, but on whether outsiders thought she resisted as hard as humanly possible. Survivors rarely measured up.

There’s an example of how “utmost resistance” worked in the 1887 text Defences to Crime. In this case, a man was accused of raping a

[self-censored due to potential TOS issue]

Rape law is filled with cases like these. Definitions of “force” are still used to make highly subjective judgments that minimize actual violence. H.R. 3 leaves every survivor open to a decision that her attacker wasn’t forceful enough, or that she didn’t scream enough, or that she didn’t struggle enough. “Forcible,” like “utmost resistance,” can be redefined by anyone in a position to apply it. Under H.R. 3, there is no guaranteed exemption for any survivors; everyone’s coverage depends on the case-by-case judgment of a government working from a hugely flawed, inevitably subjective standard.

Read more: http://www.salon.com/2011/02/01/hr3_abortion_rape/




hlen5 -> RE: Ryan Co-Sponsored Todd ‘Legit Rape’ Akin Bill To Redefine Rape (8/21/2012 10:18:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SlipSlidingAway

.......................... This is a WOMAN'S rights issue.  And since they make up approximately 50% of the population, and 50% of the possible voting population, it's a big deal. ................



(SSAway, ssshhhhh[;)][:)])You're right Republicans, it's no big deal. Noone is going to notice P Ryan sponsored a FEDERAL personhood bill and wants to voucher-ize Medicare. Noone will notice Romney is for personhood laws either...... Pay no attention to that......


Rape related pregnancy -

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8765248

CONCLUSIONS: Rape-related pregnancy occurs with significant frequency. It is a cause of many unwanted pregnancies and is closely linked with family and domestic violence. As we address the epidemic of unintended pregnancies in the United States, greater attention and effort should be aimed at preventing and identifying unwanted pregnancies that result from sexual victimization.




kalikshama -> RE: Ryan Co-Sponsored Todd ‘Legit Rape’ Akin Bill To Redefine Rape (8/21/2012 10:19:19 AM)

For those of you who scoff at "leftist" sources:

This Is The 'Redefining Rape' Bill That Democrats Will Use To Tie Paul Ryan And Mitt Romney To Todd Akin

On Sunday night, as Rep. Todd Akin's "legitimate rape" comment caused a national uproar, Democratic National Committee Chair Debbie Wasserman Schultz previewed how Democrats will use the remark to tie Akin to Republican presidential candidates Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan.

Here's Wasserman Schultz wrote in a fundraising email:

Mitt Romney famously says he would "get rid of" federal funding for Planned Parenthood if he had the chance. His running mate, Paul Ryan, was one of more than 200 Republican cosponsors of a piece of legislation that would have narrowed the definition of rape.

Can you imagine -- the same Republican House that refuses to pass a jobs bill jumped at the opportunity to make life harder for victims of rape?

And what do Romney and Ryan think of Akin's latest statement? They've been trying to distance themselves from it -- but Congressman Ryan has already partnered with Akin on a whole host of issues that restrict women's ability to make their own health care decisions.


With the vice presidential nominee Ryan, especially, expect Democrats to hit that direct connection over and over for the next three months.
In 2011, Ryan joined Akin — along with 171 others, however — in co-sponsoring The No Taxpayer Funding for Abortion Act, or House Resolution 3, which aimed to "prohibit taxpayer funded abortions and to provide for conscience protections." It passed the House but has no chance, at least now, of being brought for a vote in the Democrat-controlled Senate.

The Hyde Amendment contains exceptions to federal law banning funding for abortions that include cases of rape, incest and life-threatening circumstances for the mother. The original version of H.R. 3 would have narrowed that exception to cases of "forcible rape," though that definition was removed after much dissent (see Page 35 of the current text of the bill here).

Here's where the issue gets cloudy for Paul Ryan. Politifact notes that Ryan has only supported abortion in life-threatening cases for the mother, not rape or incest. But the Romney campaign is quickly moving to distance itself from that view, declaring Sunday night that "a Romney-Ryan administration would not oppose abortion in instances of rape."

But the Obama campaign is making sure people know where Ryan has stood in the past:

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/todd-akin-paul-ryan-rape-bill-forcible-legitimate-mitt-romney-2012-8#ixzz24Cakzz2V






kalikshama -> RE: Ryan Co-Sponsored Todd ‘Legit Rape’ Akin Bill To Redefine Rape (8/21/2012 10:23:18 AM)

quote:

No one is going to notice P Ryan sponsored a FEDERAL personhood bill


Thanks for the segue!

Paul Ryan: the 'Personhood' Crocodile?

Paul Ryan's cultivated image is cheerful, smiling, outwardly the sort of person one might wish for as a neighbor; but his policies are deadly dangerous.

He is, for example, co-sponsor of the anti-woman legislation H.R. 212: the "Sanctity of Human Life Act", which gives "all the legal and constitutional attributes of personhood" -- to fertilized eggs.

Let us be specific here: a married woman may shed a fertilized egg as part of her monthly cycle. Essentially invisible, this non-implanted embryo passes from the body in a liquid state, and is disposed of; hardly worthy of polite conversation -- until now, when the contents of a sanitary napkin may be the focus of law.

Where does Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney stand on this issue? Let us recall that he pledged to "absolutely" support a Constitutional amendment to impose personhood on the nation.

Enacted into law, a Romney/Ryan personhood plan could remove women's reproductive rights completely. It would ban abortion at any stage, block the In Vitro Fertility (IVF) procedure that presently helps so many couples achieve parenthood, end the embryonic stem cell research which offers the hope of cure to my paralyzed son -- and criminalize birth control pills.

Wherever personhood legislation has been brought to the ballot, it has been crushingly defeated. The citizens of Mississippi rejected the concept as too extreme. Coloradans voted it down twice. The Oklahoma Supreme Court found it unconstitutional.

Yet whom does Mitt Romney carefully select for his running mate, potentially a heartbeat away from the presidency?

The co-sponsor of a bill declaring: "The life of each human being begins with fertilization... at which time every human being shall have all the legal and constitutional attributes and privileges of personhood... " Robert Pear points out that, "Under this definition, abortion and some forms of birth control could be construed as murder. ..."

It is said that God in His wisdom made the crocodile ugly, so children would not play with it, and be eaten.

But what if there was a smiling crocodile?




Owner59 -> RE: Ryan Co-Sponsored Todd ‘Legit Rape’ Akin Bill To Redefine Rape (8/21/2012 10:24:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5

quote:

ORIGINAL: SlipSlidingAway

.......................... This is a WOMAN'S rights issue.  And since they make up approximately 50% of the population, and 50% of the possible voting population, it's a big deal. ................



(SSAway, ssshhhhh[;)][:)])You're right Republicans, it's no big deal. Noone is going to notice P Ryan sponsored a FEDERAL personhood bill and wants to voucher-ize Medicare. Noone will notice Romney is for personhood laws either...... Pay no attention to that......


Rape related pregnancy -

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8765248

CONCLUSIONS: Rape-related pregnancy occurs with significant frequency. It is a cause of many unwanted pregnancies and is closely linked with family and domestic violence. As we address the epidemic of unintended pregnancies in the United States, greater attention and effort should be aimed at preventing and identifying unwanted pregnancies that result from sexual victimization.





Add to that Mitt`s PROMISE to defund Planned Parenthood.

They can technically say they aren`t for outlawing abortions but basically will make them near impossible to get....if at all.

Which, is the SAME THING.




hlen5 -> RE: Ryan Co-Sponsored Todd ‘Legit Rape’ Akin Bill To Redefine Rape (8/21/2012 10:36:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

No one is going to notice P Ryan sponsored a FEDERAL personhood bill


Thanks for the segue!


You're welcome!!![:)]

ETA: Good post re rape definition, Kali! (#21).




subrob1967 -> RE: Ryan Co-Sponsored Todd ‘Legit Rape’ Akin Bill To Redefine Rape (8/21/2012 10:58:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

Nope, I don't have a problem with Ryan cosponsoring this bill... 1) He's Catholic, so it shouldn't surprise anyone...

Are you saying he has the right to cram his religious beliefs down everyone else's throat?


Nope, I'm saying he has the right to write the legislation, and you have the right to vote for his opponent. If Ryan or Akin can find enough people to vote for them instead of their opponents, that's the way it goes.

Again please tell me where it says a woman has the right to demand an abortion to be paid for by the government in the Constitution.

I believe Obama said it best...
quote:

The Constitution is a charter of negative liberties in that it states what the State and Federal government could not do to you


http://www.thepoliticalguide.com/Profiles/President/US/Barack_Obama/Views/The_Constitution/

Now if the President believes that the Constitution is a charter of negative liberties based on the fact that it wasn't written to coddle women from cradle to grave, who are we to argue with this Harvard honors educated man?

The Constitution was written to LIMIT the power of the federal government, not to micromanage the lives of the citizens.

Again, the Constitution grants the right to the STATE to care for it's citizenship, not the federal government. If you want your STATE to pay for your abortion, move to California, NY or Illinois, and vote for the politicians willing to pander to your special interest.




Hillwilliam -> RE: Ryan Co-Sponsored Todd ‘Legit Rape’ Akin Bill To Redefine Rape (8/21/2012 11:03:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967


The Constitution was written to LIMIT the power of the federal government, not to micromanage the lives of the citizens.


Which party wants to tell people what they can do in private, who they can do it with, what they can watch on TV or listen to on the radio? Which party wants to tell who you are allowed to marry?

Again. Congressmen have no business cramming their religion down our throats.
it doesn't matter if it's Catholic Doctrine or Sharia Law.




Musicmystery -> RE: Ryan Co-Sponsored Todd ‘Legit Rape’ Akin Bill To Redefine Rape (8/21/2012 11:07:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
Are you saying he has the right to cram his religious beliefs down everyone else's throat?

Nope, I'm saying he has the right to write the legislation, and you have the right to vote for his opponent. If Ryan or Akin can find enough people to vote for them instead of their opponents, that's the way it goes.


quote:

The Constitution was written to LIMIT the power of the federal government, not to micromanage the lives of the citizens.

So which is it? Get to legislate morality, or limit the power of the federal government?




hlen5 -> RE: Ryan Co-Sponsored Todd ‘Legit Rape’ Akin Bill To Redefine Rape (8/21/2012 11:09:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967


The Constitution was written to LIMIT the power of the federal government, not to micromanage the lives of the citizens.



Isn't it funny that the party that claims to guard non-governmental interference wants to vaginally probe a woman making her own reproductive choices?

I can see why it would stick in an anti-choice person's craw to object to gov. money funding an abortion. I'm not that thrilled with paying for the objectors' Viagra.




SlipSlidingAway -> RE: Ryan Co-Sponsored Todd ‘Legit Rape’ Akin Bill To Redefine Rape (8/21/2012 11:13:24 AM)

quote:

Again, the Constitution grants the right to the STATE to care for it's citizenship, not the federal government. If you want your STATE to pay for your abortion, move to California, NY or Illinois, and vote for the politicians willing to pander to your special interest.


So now, being female makes us a "special interest" to be pandered to?

Nope, no nothing to see here folks.  No war on women.  We'll just redefine personhoood on a FEDERAL level, and then let the states worry about how to deal with the only segment of the population that can carry that newly official unborn person to term. 

You simply can't have it both ways.  You can't have a federal government regulating this stuff into existence while being unwilling to deal with repercussions.  Again, it has nothing to do with state's rights and everything to do with women's rights.
--------------------------------

And to those who were so kind as to suggest that I stick around, I'm pretty sure you'll be seeing me around from time to time!  Thanks...




SlipSlidingAway -> RE: Ryan Co-Sponsored Todd ‘Legit Rape’ Akin Bill To Redefine Rape (8/21/2012 11:15:23 AM)

quote:

Again. Congressmen have no business cramming their religion down our throats.
it doesn't matter if it's Catholic Doctrine or Sharia Law.


LOL, from where I sit, it's not our throats they are aiming for!  *crossing my legs demurely*




subrob1967 -> RE: Ryan Co-Sponsored Todd ‘Legit Rape’ Akin Bill To Redefine Rape (8/21/2012 11:18:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5


quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967


The Constitution was written to LIMIT the power of the federal government, not to micromanage the lives of the citizens.



Isn't it funny that the party that claims to guard non-governmental interference wants to vaginally probe a woman making her own reproductive choices?

I can see why it would stick in an anti-choice person's craw to object to gov. money funding an abortion. I'm not that thrilled with paying for the objectors' Viagra.


There are different factions of the GOP just like there are different factions in the DNC... 2010 proved that Obama's ideology wasn't what America wanted, and 2012 will do the same. You don't like the republican platform? Welcome to the minority, now as Obama said, you can come along for the ride... On the back of the bus.




subrob1967 -> RE: Ryan Co-Sponsored Todd ‘Legit Rape’ Akin Bill To Redefine Rape (8/21/2012 11:22:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SlipSlidingAway

quote:

Again, the Constitution grants the right to the STATE to care for it's citizenship, not the federal government. If you want your STATE to pay for your abortion, move to California, NY or Illinois, and vote for the politicians willing to pander to your special interest.


So now, being female makes us a "special interest" to be pandered to?

Nope, no nothing to see here folks.  No war on women.  We'll just redefine personhoood on a FEDERAL level, and then let the states worry about how to deal with the only segment of the population that can carry that newly official unborn person to term. 

You simply can't have it both ways.  You can't have a federal government regulating this stuff into existence while being unwilling to deal with repercussions.  Again, it has nothing to do with state's rights and everything to do with women's rights.
--------------------------------

And to those who were so kind as to suggest that I stick around, I'm pretty sure you'll be seeing me around from time to time!  Thanks...



Please point out where in the Constitution it says a woman has the right to a federally funded abortion.

No one is stopping you from paying for your own abortion, or taking your rapist to court and suing him for damages. Show me where it says the government has to make it easy for you to get your abortion.




hlen5 -> RE: Ryan Co-Sponsored Todd ‘Legit Rape’ Akin Bill To Redefine Rape (8/21/2012 11:22:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

................., you can come along for the ride... On the back of the bus.


You've got that mixed up! It's Romney/Ryan that EXPECTS me to sit in the back of the bus.




Musicmystery -> RE: Ryan Co-Sponsored Todd ‘Legit Rape’ Akin Bill To Redefine Rape (8/21/2012 11:23:14 AM)

quote:

Please point out where in the Constitution it says a woman has the right to a federally funded abortion.


Right here . . .
quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967
Nope, I'm saying he has the right to write the legislation, and you have the right to vote for his opponent.




SlipSlidingAway -> RE: Ryan Co-Sponsored Todd ‘Legit Rape’ Akin Bill To Redefine Rape (8/21/2012 11:40:28 AM)

Where in the constitution does it say that I have to contribute to a health care system that pays for prostate exams?  Or Viagra?   Not my concern, as I don't need either.  Yet, I don't see you lamenting any of those things. 

A woman does not conceive a child on her own.  While it seems many conservatives have trouble with basic biology, the fact is it takes a male AND a female to create life.  However, until that life is viable, it resides within the female.  Regulating THAT life into personhood via law basically makes that newly formed person a responsibility not just of the mother-incubator, but of the government. 

So, given that, I'd have to ask: is government is going to continue to pay for the execution of those on death row?  Or, do you suggest that the victims of THOSE crimes be billed for executions?  Hell, if someone breaks into your house and is jailed, I guess the system should be sending YOU the bill, right?  I mean, by your reasoning, it's the victim's fault the person is in the system.  I'm sure you could have better safeguarded your property.  Or, maybe you just didn't really need so much stuff to begin with.  In either event, if you don't want to be billed, you can always take the perp to court and fight them on your own. No need to put all that money into law enforcement and such.  No, let's put the financial onus on victims.

Because, basically, you are telling me that women who have the misfortune of being RAPED should be financially penalized for the outcome of the it?  Sounds pretty medieval to me.




kalikshama -> RE: Ryan Co-Sponsored Todd 'Legit Rape' Akin Bill To Redefine Rape (8/21/2012 12:40:44 PM)

What federally funded abortions? When was the Hyde Amendment overturned? Not in the Affordable Care Act.

Are you opposed to the exceptions in the case of rape and incest?

What percentage of our tax dollars go to abortions for women who were victims of rape or incest using Medicaid vs to the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq?

ETA:

2009

$124,125 (331 * $375)
------------------------------------ = 0.00008%
$155,100,000,000 (source)




kalikshama -> RE: Ryan Co-Sponsored Todd 'Legit Rape' Akin Bill To Redefine Rape (8/21/2012 12:52:26 PM)

How do rape exceptions work?

The Todd Akin controversy has highlighted the divide between anti-abortion politicians like Mitt Romney who support exemptions allowing women to terminate pregnancies caused by rape or incest and those like Akin and Paul Ryan who argue that the procedure should only be allowed when a mother’s life is at risk.

Most Americans fall squarely in the former camp. A 2010 poll by Virginia Commonwealth University found (pdf) only 15 percent of Americans favored banning abortion even in cases of rape and incest, and a Washington Post poll a few weeks ago found similar results. Most anti-abortion Americans, then, want a rape exemption.

But what does such an exemption look like? How would doctors and courts go about determining if a patient had been a victim of rape or incest? To understand that, it’s worth looking at the Hyde Amendment: an annually-renewed provision banning federal health programs like Medicaid from funding abortions. The Hyde amendment exempts abortions where the mother’s life is in danger or ones that result from rape or incest.

...How does the Hyde exemption work? Not as intended, for one thing. A recent study (pdf) from Ibis Reproductive Health found that over half of eligible abortions — that is, of pregnancies due to rape or incest or in cases where continuing the pregnancy would threaten the mother’s life — conducted for Medicaid beneficiaries were not reimbursed by the program. By and large, hospitals and doctors who did not get Medicaid reimbursements said that the paperwork for getting the money was too onerous, and it was easier to fund the procedures from nonprofit groups that focus on assisting low-income women with abortion funding.

Only 37 percent of women ended up getting eligible abortions funded by Medicaid. As a consequence, a quarter of women on Medicaid who planned on getting an abortion and were eligible under the Hyde amendment ended up giving birth instead, according to a study (pdf) by the Guttmacher Institute.

Those who did get it funded — only 331 in 2009, according (pdf) to Guttmacher — often had to go through a grueling process to be reimbursed. Stephanie Poggi is the executive director of the National Network of Abortion Funds, which coordinates groups that subsidize abortions for low-income women. She tells me that many states require that women submit police reports. In Iowa, for example, women must submit a police report of a rape within 45 days of it occurring and give the report to their abortion provider so she can include it in the Medicaid claim; you can see the specific paperwork here (pdf). Given that most rapes — 54 percent, according to the Rape, Abuse, and Incest National Network (RAINN) — are never reported to police, that rules out funding for a majority of women right off the bat.

Other states, such as Pennsylvania, only require a doctor’s certification that the patient was raped (some require such a judgment from two doctors). Pennsylvania used to require a police report and two doctors’ certifications until it lost a court case forcing it to drop those requirements. I went through the policies of all 33 states (plus D.C.) that only cover abortions in the case of rape, incest or life of the mother, and found that 21 (Alabama, Arkansas, Colorado, D.C., Florida, Georgia, Kansas, Maine, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, New Hampshire, Nevada, North Carolina, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Texas and Wisconsin) only require a doctor’s note, while 11 (Delaware, Indiana, Idaho, Iowa, Louisiana, Montana, Ohio, Tennessee, Utah, Virginia and Wyoming ) require a police report or social services agency report.

Idaho, Louisiana, Montana and Utah require either a police report or a doctor’s note saying the patient was medically incapable of filing a police report; Texas and Rhode Island only require a doctor’s note but instruct doctors to tell rape victims to file a report. North Dakota accepts either a doctor’s note or a police report. Kentucky and Nebraska‘s policies are less clear, with the former only providing forms to doctors in cases where the mother’s life is in danger. And those are only the formal statutes. Ibis also found that in many states, like Mississippi, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania, that don’t require police reports, Medicaid officials frequently refuse to reimburse without them anyway. “Basically these exceptions don’t work,” Poggi concludes, adding, “It’s really a myth that there is coverage that is still provided.”




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