RE: Electro Convulsive Shock Therapy (ECT) (Full Version)

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Moonhead -> RE: Electro Convulsive Shock Therapy (ECT) (7/28/2012 10:00:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1357601/Carrie-Fisher-confesses-Oprah-regular-electric-shock-therapy-help-battle-depression.html

I have seen her in interviews since and she is honestly...a bit twitchy...and her speech is a bit slurred. Not sure if this is from the ECT or if she had a little nip in the green room before filming...

Given that she was a notorious piss artist, any long term neurological damage could be from that rather than the ect.




Duskypearls -> RE: Electro Convulsive Shock Therapy (ECT) (7/28/2012 12:41:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Depression appears to be a characteristic of some submissive personalities, according to my observations. I do not consider that to be wrong nor a disease.


What a remarkable statement! I wonder if you would elaborate on that?




LadyHibiscus -> RE: Electro Convulsive Shock Therapy (ECT) (7/28/2012 12:45:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Duskypearls


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Depression appears to be a characteristic of some submissive personalities, according to my observations. I do not consider that to be wrong nor a disease.


What a remarkable statement! I wonder if you would elaborate on that?



Oh. Dusky. NEVER ENCOURAGE RULE EVER. He is barking mad. The tinfoil of his hat eroded away many moons ago.




kalikshama -> RE: Electro Convulsive Shock Therapy (ECT) (7/28/2012 2:27:32 PM)

quote:

It's a vastly better novel than film


I am a Book Person [:D]




DesFIP -> RE: Electro Convulsive Shock Therapy (ECT) (7/28/2012 3:42:11 PM)

Aren't all books better than the film versions?

Ignore Rule. He has no knowledge of neurobiology and doesn't believe in what is apparent on MRIs and such. Like changes in the brain in suicidal patients.

I asked my psychiatrist about it when the depression returned during perimenopause. He said if none of the SSRIs and other such meds worked, then he would prescribe it. But there are an awful lot of medications today which can be tried first.

In exactly the same way that no med works for everyone, the same is true for this. But if my choice was untreated suicidal ideation or ECT, I'd be signing the release in a New York Minute.

I'm fourth generation mood disorder, doctors love studying my family tree. It attacks submissives, dominants, vanillas and every other flavor imaginable. What is true is that during an episode of severe depression, you don't have the energy to control someone else's life and frequently your own. But that's the disease causing situational inability to dominate even when you normally are. Not the other way around.




FullCircle -> RE: Electro Convulsive Shock Therapy (ECT) (7/28/2012 4:59:33 PM)

FR

I've not really ever been sure what the science behind ECT is meant to be i.e. why did one person think one day 'let's see if these jump leads work on brains to'.

How can you direct electricity to anything other than the path of least resistance? Who knows how it's coursing through your brain?




Aswad -> RE: Electro Convulsive Shock Therapy (ECT) (7/29/2012 3:00:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

I've not really ever been sure what the science behind ECT is meant to be i.e. why did one person think one day 'let's see if these jump leads work on brains to'.


There is no science behind ECT. Some science has been applied to ECT, but the treatment itself is a case of "we've seen this work, so we keep on using it". Might even call it naturopathy, which tends to be based on the same principle. Anyway, the idea pretty much comes down to people noting that seizures tend to bring depressions to a halt, at least for a while, and that electrical shocks tend to induce seizures and/or convulsions. Thus, a few people were electrocuted to see if it might have interesting effects. Turns out it did. So we sort of stuck with it, and eventually started refining the process a bit.

In the history of medicine, there's a lot of stuff we've discovered in less than ethical ways. For instance, gynecological surgeries are a product of cutting up black slaves without anaesthesia. Some neurosurgery derives from a sadist having fun at a free clinic. What we know about some epidemics is primarily from biowar research. Explosive trauma gold standards of care are from the first Gulf War when civilians tried to dig up boobytrapped mines. Most privation and survivability data is from the Holocaust. Anatomy is a matter of dug up corpses, uncollected corpses, and so forth. Syphilis was studied in Tuguskee up to the 70s at least.

For a while, a lot of doctors were miffed about the growth of the antivivisectionist movement, while most now oppose vivisection of humans.

quote:

How can you direct electricity to anything other than the path of least resistance? Who knows how it's coursing through your brain?


It flows through fibers in the transverse plane, meaning it takes a sagittal (side-side) direction through the brain, with some of the current spreading out. Transverse fibers are thick nerve bundles that constitute a relatively short path with relatively low resistance to the current, and thus very little flows outside the major bundles. Large fibers are able to dissipate the heat and are merely being electrically disrupted by the jolt. Small fibers conduct too little current to be significantly affected. Intermediate fibers carry enough to heat up, and are too small to dissipate the heat, so some of those die off. As a result, the treatment provides a disruption of the current state of the brain, and repeated treatments progressively trim back "excessive" connections in the brain.

None of this was known until 2009 or so. Like most medical treatment, empirical effects on symptoms guide the usage.

Bear in mind that although we don't know the function of the "excess" connections, we do know that there are more connections in certain directions for patients with recurring depressive illnesses. In effect, this means the treatment does normalize something in the wiring. I'm loath to make an unsupported argument that "ignorance as bliss" is the source of efficacy, but it does seem to be a bit apropos. For the vast majority of patients electing to have ECT, such is not necessarily a bad thing. As dcnovice said about the drugs, without relief there often won't be a long term, so one might make an argument that nothing is ventured that wouldn't have been lost anyway. And we do know a lot of the drugs cause persistent changes, as well.

The long and short of it is: we have no very precisely targettable treatments.

We do, however, have a number of very effective treatments.

Side effects tend to correlate with efficacy.

IWYW,
— Aswad.





Moonhead -> RE: Electro Convulsive Shock Therapy (ECT) (7/29/2012 5:51:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Aren't all books better than the film versions?


Believe it or not, they aren't. Try reading Puzo's The Godfather sometime: Scorcese dropped exactly the right bits of that massively padded heap of arse. The Harry Potter films are vastly better than JK Rowling's novels as well...




MalcolmNathaniel -> RE: Electro Convulsive Shock Therapy (ECT) (7/29/2012 1:27:27 PM)

This was very informative. Thank you.

I still don't trust the concept. I think it's a lot like firing a shotgun at a basket of eggs and hoping to hit just the right egg. Part of this may be the fact that when I deal with circuits I want to know exactly what is going to happen when when I apply current. Dealing with probability and statistics when it comes to brain architecture seems a bit irresponsible to me.

I guess if it's a last ditch effort when everything else failed it might be a valid choice. I talked with a neurobiology student about this and she says it is a valid choice in, and ONLY in, extreme cases. Her background: BS in Veterinary Tech, MS in CompSci and currently working on her PhD in Neurobiology. The last is because her sister is psychotic. Her opinion informed mine. She is very intelligent, I have a long history with her and trust her, and this subject is something she would never reply to without knowing what she was talking about.

On a lighter note: Agent J to Agent K:
""Woman's a doctor, she don't need you flashing away half her med school classes."




littlewonder -> RE: Electro Convulsive Shock Therapy (ECT) (7/29/2012 2:48:58 PM)

quote:

I think it's a lot like firing a shotgun at a basket of eggs and hoping to hit just the right egg


And for those with extreme depression, that's better than a gun shot to the head.




MalcolmNathaniel -> RE: Electro Convulsive Shock Therapy (ECT) (7/29/2012 3:10:23 PM)

But it is basically a shotgun to the head.

BTW: How did you get a picture of my kitten as your avatar?

[image]local://upfiles/1079407/4382D824C81844D89A3DF52388A01AC8.jpg[/image]




angelikaJ -> RE: Electro Convulsive Shock Therapy (ECT) (7/29/2012 3:22:34 PM)


As for ECT: mmother had it numerous times when I was growing up.
It probably did save her life.
She had some memory issues but it was done quite differently in the late 60s and 70s.




Aswad -> RE: Electro Convulsive Shock Therapy (ECT) (7/29/2012 4:16:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MalcolmNathaniel

I still don't trust the concept. I think it's a lot like firing a shotgun at a basket of eggs and hoping to hit just the right egg. Part of this may be the fact that when I deal with circuits I want to know exactly what is going to happen when when I apply current. Dealing with probability and statistics when it comes to brain architecture seems a bit irresponsible to me.


Ever work with compressed sense technology or the like?

The brain is pretty good at handling some kinds of injuries, and that's sort of the point here. The injuries will be greater in the areas where an anomaly is present, and less in other areas. The shotgun analogy is flawed. It's more like cancer therapy and antibiotics: you use something the unwanted parts are more sensitive to than the wanted parts, and hope the wanted parts will survive while the unwanted parts die. Mostly, the brain is resillient to these injuries, and the treatment is fairly selective for the wiring that permits the depression to exist. As a result, it's about comparable to many medical treatments.

Granted, we don't know what else that wiring does, but for most people getting it voluntarily, it'll be a good choice.

quote:

I guess if it's a last ditch effort when everything else failed it might be a valid choice.


While some doctors are a bit zap-happy, most indeed reserve it for cases where several other therapies have failed.

I've declined on the grounds that there's no difference to me between losing certain at-risk bits of wiring and dying anyway. But I have very rarely encountered others that have made a coherent argument to the effect that their priorities are the same, so I would tend to think it's on par with things like chemo: you don't do it for fun, you do it to save a life that is otherwise lost, and hope you end up doing more good than harm. Also, bear in mind that for severe depression, lacking adequate treatment is usually worse than dying. That changes the picture a bit.

I'm personally skeptical of ECT, but I still see it as a good treatment option for most people with severe, refractory depression.

As I said, the risks aren't all that great. It's just freaky. Much like we irrationally fear airplanes more than cars.

IWYW,
— Aswad.





littlewonder -> RE: Electro Convulsive Shock Therapy (ECT) (7/29/2012 8:04:05 PM)

a gunshot will kill you most likely.

ECT gives you a chance to live a normal life again and rarely ever causes death. I've yet to hear anyone being killed by it, at least not in these modern times. I would rather have certain memories lost than having to live in a deep dark hole for the rest of my life.




defiantbadgirl -> RE: Electro Convulsive Shock Therapy (ECT) (7/29/2012 9:19:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

a gunshot will kill you most likely.

ECT gives you a chance to live a normal life again and rarely ever causes death. I've yet to hear anyone being killed by it, at least not in these modern times. I would rather have certain memories lost than having to live in a deep dark hole for the rest of my life.



So people suffering from the effects of ECT get to choose which memories they lose? And you think I come across as a creepy weirdo.




angelikaJ -> RE: Electro Convulsive Shock Therapy (ECT) (7/29/2012 9:27:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

a gunshot will kill you most likely.

ECT gives you a chance to live a normal life again and rarely ever causes death. I've yet to hear anyone being killed by it, at least not in these modern times. I would rather have certain memories lost than having to live in a deep dark hole for the rest of my life.



You seem to be under the impression that people suffering from the effects of ECT get to choose which memories they lose.


No, she did not indicate that at all.

She simply stated that given the choice between losing some memories (non-specific) and having to live in the deep dark hole depression is for some people- for her, the cost of memory loss is a better cost than an intolerable life.
Her personal preference is to give up memories and have a life worth living again.




defiantbadgirl -> RE: Electro Convulsive Shock Therapy (ECT) (7/29/2012 9:38:12 PM)

The fact that she's not concerned about losing the wrong memories indicates otherwise. There's no way I'd ever consent to someone electrocuting my brain. Just thinking about it gives me the willies.




angelikaJ -> RE: Electro Convulsive Shock Therapy (ECT) (7/29/2012 9:50:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

The fact that she's not concerned about losing the wrong memories indicates otherwise. There's no way I'd ever consent to someone electrocuting my brain. Just thinking about it gives me the willies.


Read the entire thread.
No one is advocating getting zapped just because someone is feeling a bit blue.

But if one is depressed and you have tried all the medication options and they aren't working, then ECT is probably a better option than suicide.
This isn't a first line treatment; this is last line defense.




PeonForHer -> RE: Electro Convulsive Shock Therapy (ECT) (7/30/2012 3:25:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder
I would rather have certain memories lost than having to live in a deep dark hole for the rest of my life.



Yup. It's difficult or even impossible to explain what severe depression feels like. It can be literally unbearable.




kalikshama -> RE: Electro Convulsive Shock Therapy (ECT) (7/30/2012 6:47:15 AM)

A Clockwork Orange is one of the very few films I prefer over the book.

quote:

The Harry Potter films are vastly better than JK Rowling's novels as well...


This fan fic is even better! http://www.hpmor.com/

Petunia married a biochemist, and Harry grew up reading science and science fiction. Then came the Hogwarts letter, and a whole new world that had never heard of Science.




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