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My take on the ACA - 6/29/2012 5:23:32 AM   
Memphismaster61


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Okay folks, I said in my introduction post when I have something to say, you'd better pay attention. This is one of those posts. So, go relieve yourself, get a fresh cup of coffee, sit down, pull your head out of your politics and prepare for a ride.

First and foremost, I wish this to be clear: HEALTHCARE IS NOT A RIGHT. You, as a human being do have certain, God given (not government given) rights. Example: You have the right to defend yourself, family and possessions against attack. If someone raises their fist towards you or yours, you have the OBLIGATION to grab whatever is handy (fist, object, firearm, etc) and hit them back first. That is a law of the jungle. That subject will be another post.

Healthcare is not a right, because you must depend on someone else to provide a service to you. You do not have the right to force someone else to provide that service if they do not want to offer it. In today's world, it takes a maximum effort commitment of 8-10 years and upwards of $100,000 to become a doctor. Just remember, no doctors, no healthcare. The tests and treatments involved in today's healthcare are also very expensive. An MRI machine can easily cost over $2 million, just for the machine. Not to mention the maintenance and repair costs associated with it. I was on a medication for 10 years that retailed for $830 a month. Luckily I had insurance, so I didn't have to pay that price.

Healthcare is expensive simply because we have tests and treatments today that didn't exist 20 years ago. If you developed cancer when I was growing up, it was a death sentence. Sure, they could cut out what they could, but it just grew back and still killed you. Today, you can through modern treatments, beat cancer multiple times.

Someone invested millions of dollars into developing these tests and treatments, and they expect to recoup that cost and make a profit as well. That drug I mentioned above? It probably took 10 years and upwards of $50 million (or more) from initial conception, testing, marketing and production to produce and bring to market. Sure, the generic is cheap once the patent expires, because the generic manufacturers didn't have the capital outlay that the inventors did.

Healthcare is a big, expensive business. If you take the money out of it, no one will do it, and then where is your precious "right?"

Second. Let me provide you a context as to the current status of the balance of healthcare. Let me state for the record that this is an abstraction, and any attempt to carry the example too far will cause it to break down.

Here you have a plot of land that 100 farmers work on and grow the food for a village of 1,000 people. Everything is stable in the fact that the land provides enough food to feed everybody and nobody goes hungry. Outside of the village, you have a group of undetermined size of hunter-gatherers that are hungry pretty much all of the time. Sometimes they get into the villages food supply and steal some food. This makes the farmers work harder and the people of the village have to go a little hungry and have smaller portions until the balance is restored.

Now, one day, the villagers get the notion to "help" the hunter-gatherers by inviting them to become members of the village. So, the new people are brought into the village. Mind you, the amount of farming land and number of farmers remain the same as before. With more people to feed, but with the same amount of food, portions must be smaller. It's a math issue. No wishing otherwise will make more food grow on the same amount of land. So, now everyone, villagers and hunter-gatherers start to go hungry. On top of that, 2 farmers decide to quit and not work on the land any more because they were against bringing the new group into the village. So now you have more people, less famers and the same amount of land. This will cause the amount of food produced to go down, so everyone will get hungrier. More farmland and farmers must be found or eventually people will starve and die off until a balance is reached again.

That (within the confines of the example) is the current state of the medical field. When we add "13 million" uninsured people into our already strained and overloaded healthcare system, the amount of healthcare that each individual receives will necessarily be smaller. Unless we find a way to add more hospitals, doctors and support staff, rationing will be the result. Add onto that the fact that doctors are getting out of the Medicare/Medicaid system, which will further reduce the capacity in the face of increasing demand. If you think that there won't be at least some kind or form of rationing of healthcare, I want what you're smoking.

Medical insurance companies (in fact, any company) are in business to make money. Understand that. Take it to heart. Learn it, live it, love it.

Remember what insurance is: It's a bet that you make with the insurance company. You are betting that you will need catastrophic health insurance sometime in your life. They charge you an amount appropriate to their actuarial tables that would mean they would still make a profit on you, depending on what lifestyle you have (smoking, obese, etc). Again, they are selling you a service, and it is their right to not sell you that service if they think they won't make money from you. So, pre-existing conditions and lifetime caps are going to be there, no matter if you like it or not. If an insurance company doesn't make money, there is no reason for that company to exist in the first place.

With the Affordable Care Act being upheld, this is what we will start seeing. A large rock has been thrown into the pool, and the after effects will not be ripples, but tsunamis.

With the USSC stating that this is a tax, and "you don't have to pay the tax," let's see how many people decide to not file federal income taxes next year, based on that phrase. But I digress.

I also want a proponent for the ACA (that means someone who is in favor of) to point to me _three_ services provided by the Federal government that was/should be provided by the free market that didn't balloon out of control and cost many times more than what the initial cost was told to us.

The ACA will cost us $billions (if not even $trillions) more than the wildest expectations and projections of today. The Federal government has proven in every aspect of our lives that no matter how much we are taxed, they will spend that and more, way more.

To sell the idea of "unlimited healthcare" to everyone (and just in case you forgot, even with the ACA, and estimated 2.5 million Americans will still not receive any healthcare) is a lie. So even when "Everyone is insured," not everyone will receive insurance.

The costs associated with the ACA will skyrocket, and this may very well be the straw that broke the fiscal camels back and drive the United States into bankruptcy.

Only time will tell.
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RE: My take on the ACA - 6/29/2012 5:27:18 AM   
kalikshama


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If I'd drunk the Obama-is-a-socialist Kool-Aid I'd be upset too.

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RE: My take on the ACA - 6/29/2012 6:03:49 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

Healthcare is not a right, because you must depend on someone else to provide a service to you. You do not have the right to force someone else to provide that service if they do not want to offer it. In today's world, it takes a maximum effort commitment of 8-10 years and upwards of $100,000 to become a doctor. Just remember, no doctors, no healthcare.


This debate was had in an earlier thread. You are a little late. Firstly, no doctor is 'forced' to provide a service. Any doctor can choose to practice privately without access to insurance company payments. Most importantly, by this absurd definition that a service provided cannot be a Right we would have to exclude the right to a public education and the right to safety in our communities, because we depend on others to provide the service. Your extreme Ayn Rand philosophy is a cartoon cut-out. So, more fringe-wing BS.

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RE: My take on the ACA - 6/29/2012 6:16:34 AM   
DarkSteven


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Um, MemphisMaster, you DO realize that right now, prior to the ACA implementation, the indigent get treated anyway, right?

It amazes me the amount of fighting on both sides that relies upon the inaccuracy of the indigent currently being denied treatment.

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RE: My take on the ACA - 6/29/2012 6:22:35 AM   
Iamsemisweet


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You lost me at "you'd better pay attention.".

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RE: My take on the ACA - 6/29/2012 6:24:43 AM   
DomYngBlk


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The example that you used is a bit off. The Healthcare system in the US is artificially constrained by the AMA on purpose. The "land" of Doctors could be increased tomorrow if the AMA would want that to happen so that all the hunters and gatherers would be "fed".




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RE: My take on the ACA - 6/29/2012 6:36:41 AM   
kalikshama


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Where ya been?

Do elaborate:

quote:

The Healthcare system in the US is artificially constrained by the AMA on purpose. The "land" of Doctors could be increased tomorrow if the AMA would want that to happen so that all the hunters and gatherers would be "fed"
.

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RE: My take on the ACA - 6/29/2012 6:55:05 AM   
mnottertail


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I was paying attention, cuz I thought you had something to say, it proved otherwise.


Heya DYB?  Where ya been?   Welcome back.

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RE: My take on the ACA - 6/29/2012 7:01:21 AM   
GreedyTop


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heya DYB!!! *hugs*


I got hung up on this bit:

quote:

Here you have a plot of land that 100 farmers work on and grow the food for a village of 1,000 people. Everything is stable in the fact that the land provides enough food to feed everybody and nobody goes hungry. Outside of the village, you have a group of undetermined size of hunter-gatherers that are hungry pretty much all of the time. Sometimes they get into the villages food supply and steal some food. This makes the farmers work harder and the people of the village have to go a little hungry and have smaller portions until the balance is restored.

Now, one day, the villagers get the notion to "help" the hunter-gatherers by inviting them to become members of the village. So, the new people are brought into the village. Mind you, the amount of farming land and number of farmers remain the same as before. With more people to feed, but with the same amount of food, portions must be smaller. It's a math issue. No wishing otherwise will make more food grow on the same amount of land. So, now everyone, villagers and hunter-gatherers start to go hungry. On top of that, 2 farmers decide to quit and not work on the land any more because they were against bringing the new group into the village. So now you have more people, less famers and the same amount of land. This will cause the amount of food produced to go down, so everyone will get hungrier. More farmland and farmers must be found or eventually people will starve and die off until a balance is reached again.



I just wanna know why the hunter-gatherers didn't get off their asses and go hunt and gather to supplement the produce?

(note the 5)

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RE: My take on the ACA - 6/29/2012 7:04:12 AM   
mnottertail


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I didnt know it was about the vegetable gardens ... now that it has been explained to me, I see no connection whatsoever.

I'm banking my tinfoil on this one.

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RE: My take on the ACA - 6/29/2012 7:08:25 AM   
Musicmystery


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Why was this a great idea in 1992 v. ClintonCare, and a great idea in Massachusetts, but a bad idea in the ACA?

Your first point -- insurance works by drawing from a pool. Increasing the pool means lower premiums, as the risk is spread wider. Of course, we're also adding the risks, including pre-existing conditions and eliminating lifetime caps. But that's why people buy insurance, to have coverage when they need it. Likely a wash. If it's a bit of an increase, I'm OK with that. Costs have been rising so quickly that businesses are cancelling insurance. This will quickly become a crisis without a solution, even a partial solution like ACA. And I don't care how healthy you are; one accident could put you tens of thousands in debt. Especially important is getting people care in the early stages, keeping them healthy, rather than waiting until they're in the ER getting expensive catastrophic care.

Second point -- it's hypothetical, not analytical data. But first, primary care is less time intensive than emergency care. We can certainly encourage people to enter the medical field--guarantee loans in return for ten years service where needed, for example. And again, this is already happening, before ACA. Faulty cause and effect.

Insurance companies are getting more subscribers to offset costs. It's a reasonable deal. If they can't handle it, then we need to move to single payer sooner rather than later.

For all the noise, lots of people would love to have insurance. I lived for years without it, and while I was health, at least a catastrophic plan with a high deductible would have been great. Why do you suppose the age 26 provision is so popular, when these people are healthy?

This is the start of a process 60 years overdue.

As for rationing--we already ration health care. We provide it to those who can pay, not to those who can't.



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 6/29/2012 7:09:03 AM >

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RE: My take on the ACA - 6/29/2012 7:17:16 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

Healthcare is not a right, because you must depend on someone else to provide a service to you. You do not have the right to force someone else to provide that service if they do not want to offer it. In today's world, it takes a maximum effort commitment of 8-10 years and upwards of $100,000 to become a doctor. Just remember, no doctors, no healthcare. The tests and treatments involved in today's healthcare are also very expensive. An MRI machine can easily cost over $2 million, just for the machine. Not to mention the maintenance and repair costs associated with it. I was on a medication for 10 years that retailed for $830 a month. Luckily I had insurance, so I didn't have to pay that price.


Ah, back to this argument. Allow me to continue upon your semi-rant.

Yes, no tax dollars, no doctors.

Need an explanation? Check out who funds the majority of residency programs in the US. There is your answer.

quote:

Healthcare is a big, expensive business. If you take the money out of it, no one will do it, and then where is your precious "right?"


So what was the excuse before health care became a for profit organization? And you do realize that other countries are still advancing their medical fields.... without the promises of riches.

quote:

That (within the confines of the example) is the current state of the medical field. When we add "13 million" uninsured people into our already strained and overloaded healthcare system, the amount of healthcare that each individual receives will necessarily be smaller. Unless we find a way to add more hospitals, doctors and support staff, rationing will be the result. Add onto that the fact that doctors are getting out of the Medicare/Medicaid system, which will further reduce the capacity in the face of increasing demand. If you think that there won't be at least some kind or form of rationing of healthcare, I want what you're smoking.


You arent "adding" them, they are already there. They are in the ER's as emergency patients, eating up far more dollars with long hospital stays because they didnt have the money to get high blood pressure medications and either had a stroke which requires months of care... or dialysis because their kidneys shut down... and the likelihood that either condition ends that person up on disability.

Stat orders are expensive... treating a stroke is expensive.. dialysis treatments for life are expensive...

Blood Pressure pills... not so much in comparison.



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RE: My take on the ACA - 6/29/2012 7:41:53 AM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

Where ya been?

Do elaborate:

quote:

The Healthcare system in the US is artificially constrained by the AMA on purpose. The "land" of Doctors could be increased tomorrow if the AMA would want that to happen so that all the hunters and gatherers would be "fed"
.


Allow me to translate. The AMA has long artificially restricted the number of doctors entering medical school each year. By doing so, they keep the cost of care higher than it should be.

By hunter-gatherers, DYB is referring to those that actually create food, which is the purest form of creating value. Doctors simply provide a service to that population.

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The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

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RE: My take on the ACA - 6/29/2012 7:55:19 AM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

If I'd drunk the Obama-is-a-socialist Kool-Aid I'd be upset too.


Heard a former director for Cigna Health this morning say that the health care industry has spent litterally hundereds of mullions of dollars misleading the public about the basic facts and painting reform as "a total government take-over of health-care"...socialism etc.

As well as the extremists who use terms like "death panel".

There`s a lot of folks who say government anything, is no good......accept capital punishment......they`re all over that shit....

But then I ask my con-debaters what part of the healthcare system has "been take over",what hospital or clinic or office has "been taken over"....?

And of course, the silence is my answer.

I wonder if the OP with all his knowledge and insight could explain to us why it is that in America,we pay close to double per capita for heath-care as the other 1st world countries and get the same or worse level of care/cure?

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 6/29/2012 7:56:19 AM >


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RE: My take on the ACA - 6/29/2012 8:08:43 AM   
Hillwilliam


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We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness

Unalienable rights...............LIFE. Wouldn't that mean health care since without it you tend to umm DIE?

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RE: My take on the ACA - 6/29/2012 8:14:51 AM   
Owner59


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Good point Hill.

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RE: My take on the ACA - 6/29/2012 8:48:12 AM   
JstAnotherSub


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quote:

Okay folks, I said in my introduction post when I have something to say, you'd better pay attention.


That is as far as I got. You aint the boss of me!

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RE: My take on the ACA - 6/29/2012 8:49:44 AM   
LaTigresse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

quote:

Okay folks, I said in my introduction post when I have something to say, you'd better pay attention.


That is as far as I got. You aint the boss of me!


That's when I said a 'bless yur heart' and quit reading, as well.

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RE: My take on the ACA - 6/29/2012 12:04:35 PM   
Memphismaster61


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Thank you for all of the responses!

I actually wrote this yesterday afternoon offline on my iPad, but then I couldn't copy it over tothe browser to post. I had to send it to myself this morning to do it.

Anyway, I am slammed at the moment, and I do promise that I will address everyone as soon as I can!

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RE: My take on the ACA - 6/29/2012 12:15:08 PM   
RacerJim


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My take on the ACA is that since the SCOTUS ruled it is a tax, it may not be unconstitutional but it was not enacted per the U.S. Constitution which mandates that tax law originate in the House of Representatives and Obamacare originated in the Senate.

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