Should they Evolve, Stay the same, dissolve?

Should they Evolve, Stay the same, dissolve? (Full Version)

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Hillwilliam -> Should they Evolve, Stay the same, dissolve? (6/2/2012 5:36:36 AM)
http://news.yahoo.com/catholic-church-dangerous-outdated-dissolve-204000761.html

fucktoyprincess -> RE: Should they Evolve, Stay the same, dissolve? (6/2/2012 6:06:51 AM)
All religions today are either a diluted form of the original, or a more intense form of the original. None are exactly the same. So obviously, there is a moment where social or political pressures put enough pressure on a religion that in order for it to both stay relevant or even be allowed to continue requires change in practices. And for some strange reason, the words of the omniscient, omnipotent, god(s) are not flexible enough to enable that. So man has to decide how to change the religion. Evolution in any religion has generally required leadership to ignore religious writings, cast aside some writings in favor of others, or create new dogma. Evolution also occurs when a group simply splits from the original to create its own religion (e.g. Protestantism and its various faiths). Which then does beg the question of what the evolved religion really is. If man can simply decide what to follow and what not to follow, it really does challenge the notion of any set of religious writings being the word of "god(s)". I'm quite sure the Catholic church will evolve to meet this challenge, just as it has evolved in the past (Reformation, anyone?) - it just might take a while. But it is not going to disappear. People need their religion. It is here to stay in whatever diluted form it eventually evolves into.

kalikshama -> RE: Should they Evolve, Stay the same, dissolve? (6/2/2012 9:51:56 AM)
For those who don't click on links: The Catholic Church is Dangerous, Outdated, and Should Dissolve COMMENTARY \| The Catholic Church is hammering so many nails into its own coffin that even an outside observer like me is left shaking his head at the ridiculous behavior of its leadership. The Vatican (generally meaning "the Pope") is angry with nuns for their behavior, and Cardinal Dolan from the New York Archdiocese is embroiled in yet another pedophile priest scandal. Let's look at how the two situations prove the Catholic Church is on its last legs. Starting close to home we have Cardinal Dolan's little fiasco. It just came to light he might have been part of a plan to pay off child-molesting priests 20 grand each to leave the priesthood quietly, according to a CNN report. The alleged reason was to hide the pedophiles' actions and avoid lawsuits by paying them hush money. If it were anyone buy clergy committing these acts my guess is that mass arrests would have already been made. Another CNN report talks about the Vatican's recent attack on American nuns. The statement from Rome says they have gone rogue and have become radical feminists. The reason? The Pope thinks they should spend less time supporting social justice and more time opposing same-sex marriage, abortion, and euthanasia. The Vatican is enforcing sanctions against the nuns, taking punitive action to get them back in line. The Pope is essentially telling each of these nuns, "Shut up and get back in the kitchen where you belong, woman." Apparently in the mind of the Pope social justice just isn't a big deal. It's possible that Dolan was trying to protect the institution of the Church with his actions. If so he and his Church are broken. I don't care how loyal he is to the Church -- it should be instantly obvious that the well-being of a child rape victim is more important than an organization. Normal people can't stand the idea of letting child rapists off the hook. It's possible the Pope thinks he's making the right decision biblically -- and he might be correct. If so, his scripture is broken. It's ancient mythology that treats women like property. It's making him think social justice is irrelevant. The Catholic Church is out of touch with reality and cares little for social justice and women's rights. Any religion so broken should dissolve and give its adherents a chance to live better lives without it.

kalikshama -> RE: Should they Evolve, Stay the same, dissolve? (6/2/2012 9:53:14 AM)
Maybe it will evolve with the next Pope. My Mom evolved from a Catholic to a Unitarian.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: Should they Evolve, Stay the same, dissolve? (6/2/2012 10:44:39 AM)
A couple of my younger cousins that are parents left the Church to become Lutherans, all due to the pedo coverups. People see what affects them personally. Lots of religious choices out there for those who are so inclined...

dcnovice -> RE: Should they Evolve, Stay the same, dissolve? (6/2/2012 4:28:53 PM)
As someone who decided that Catholicism (my childhood faith) wasn't for me, I understand where the author is coming from. But I think he's engaged in a bit of US-centric wishful thinking. This is the institution, after all, that watched half of Europe leave during the Reformation, then launched a counter-Reformation that left the church even more uncompromising than before. And the church is far more focused, I think, on its growth in the Third World than on American dissatisfaction.

stellauk -> RE: Should they Evolve, Stay the same, dissolve? (6/2/2012 4:34:01 PM)
Well maybe a democratically elected Pope say every five years is the answer. Otherwise you have the hypocrisy of people rejecting communism but accepting the Catholic Church which has the exact same hierarchy and runs on the exact same principles.

jlf1961 -> RE: Should they Evolve, Stay the same, dissolve? (6/2/2012 5:35:57 PM)
Funny, the Muslim religion still suppresses women's rights, endorses slavery, AND in some fundamentalist groups advocates the use of terrorism, and no one is calling for them to evolve. The Eastern Orthodox church is just as steeped in dogma and tradition as the Catholic Church. Yet, because of the scandals, which in my opinion are more covered because it is the Catholic Church, it is vilified, attacked and condemned. Hate to tell you people, but other religious groups that are more "modern" have had their share of scandals, including child abuse. But they also include adultery. Let us not forget the various fundamentalist Mormon churches that advocate the forced marriage of 13 year old girls to men three or four times their age. I have not been to mass in years, but it is irritating that everyone points fingers at the Catholic church and conveniently forgets other religious organizations and denominations that have had their share of scandals.

Real0ne -> RE: Should they Evolve, Stay the same, dissolve? (6/2/2012 5:45:18 PM)
it was nothing more than an exchange and means to double the tax base. always that damn gubafia angle to everything politcal. women always had rights, that is under the common law they had far more rights than they do now. sort of laughable aint it? LOL

PeonForHer -> RE: Should they Evolve, Stay the same, dissolve? (6/2/2012 6:30:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 Funny, the Muslim religion still suppresses women's rights, endorses slavery, AND in some fundamentalist groups advocates the use of terrorism, and no one is calling for them to evolve. The Eastern Orthodox church is just as steeped in dogma and tradition as the Catholic Church. Yet, because of the scandals, which in my opinion are more covered because it is the Catholic Church, it is vilified, attacked and condemned. I have to say that's not a powerful defence, JLF. 'The Catholic Church is only as evil as many other churches'. I mean, really, how does it leave its supporters? With an argument that goes something like, 'Well, I'm still a practising Catholic because, though I know that my church is run by a lot of savage, immoral shits, they're my savage, immoral shits'?

Fellow -> RE: Should they Evolve, Stay the same, dissolve? (6/2/2012 7:07:12 PM)
It seems the commentator is an atheist. I do not think sex crimes of few individuals will destroy the church. The problem is overblown for obvious reasons: chance of extracting money from a powerful organization (mostly for lawyers). Atheists take advantage of the situation. How do you reform to absolutely avoid crime by the members of the organization? It is not possible. The church as a whole has problems to attract young people. It has to do with the general situation in the World. This is the area church needs to enhance its activities. They are cornered to a great extent. The Devil is winning, lawlessness, greed, corruption wars on the rise.

jlf1961 -> RE: Should they Evolve, Stay the same, dissolve? (6/2/2012 7:14:31 PM)
The parent church is guilty of transferring priests who where child molesters IN THE PAST. Priests have been prosecuted. What I am trying to point out is that there are other churches who have been involved in scandals, the Mormon church limits women in many ways, BUT only the Catholic church is condemned. By the way, the Mormon church is against birth control and abortion in case you have not heard. In other words people, if you are going to condemn ONE church, condemn them all for their followers misdeeds and criminal behavior. To continue to point out the failings of one church and ignoring the others is hypocritical.

erieangel -> RE: Should they Evolve, Stay the same, dissolve? (6/2/2012 7:18:03 PM)
I don't really consider myself Christian any longer and most of my problems with the church have to do with the very idea of any organized religion. Having said that however, if I were to embrace any religion, i would probably return to the Catholic Church--they are no worst no better than any others but I love the traditions and I had always felt comfortable in Mass.

SternSkipper -> RE: Should they Evolve, Stay the same, dissolve? (6/2/2012 7:39:47 PM)
quote: http://news.yahoo.com/catholic-church-dangerous-outdated-dissolve-204000761.html Haven't you seen the signs outside of the churches the past few years: Renew PLEASE FUCKING RENEW

SternSkipper -> RE: Should they Evolve, Stay the same, dissolve? (6/2/2012 7:41:09 PM)
quote: As someone who decided that Catholicism (my childhood faith) wasn't for me Couldn't have been the life choice repression, could it?

jlf1961 -> RE: Should they Evolve, Stay the same, dissolve? (6/2/2012 8:00:18 PM)
Skipper there are other christian groups that are heavy into choice restriction, or does that matter?

SternSkipper -> RE: Should they Evolve, Stay the same, dissolve? (6/2/2012 8:28:16 PM)
quote: Skipper there are other christian groups that are heavy into choice restriction, or does that matter? Not even a little I was raised a catholic. Left the church in my late 30s when I figured out the pompus asshole who consecrated my 2nd marriage for a fee got busted in a Nashua, NH Dunkin Donuts parking lot. It might've been the "lecture' and profiteering over my life's choice that turned me off. That okay with you J? And I don't mean that to sound sarcastic, just that it's based on a real life experience and not blind prejudice. But i am very offended that the church originated by a being that flipped over money changers' tables and was against the abuse of 'the meek' would get so wrapped up in money and hypocracy. And I personally know a TON of catholics who live more in accordance with Jesus than any priest I ever met m cept one... check your inbox[8D]

SternSkipper -> RE: Should they Evolve, Stay the same, dissolve? (6/2/2012 8:41:08 PM)
Never mind J ... can't send you PMs ... probably the profile setup I had an interesting new clipping to show you... no matter

jlf1961 -> RE: Should they Evolve, Stay the same, dissolve? (6/2/2012 8:55:57 PM)
As I said, I have not been to mass in years for various reasons. And my problem is with organized religion as a whole. As for personal experience, I have met priests that lived the way they should and followed the teachings of Jesus faithfully, and I have met priests who left a lot to be desired. But I was also told by a Baptist preacher I was going to hell for not being born again. I even went to a Mormon Church for awhile and really that really turned me off of organized religion. The problem is simple, ANY church puts priests and preachers on a pedestal. And there are some mega churches that are so ornate they make the average Catholic church look like a dump. There are also some mega churches that have preachers living in million dollar homes and driving luxury cars that their average church goer could not even afford to test drive. I have lived in Europe and seen both Catholic and Non Catholic churches decorated with gold leaf and exquisite stained glass that cost a fortune in the middle ages when they were built while the average church goer was so poor that they could barely afford to eat. I have seen reports of some big charismatic churches that always ask their followers for money where 75 cents of every dollar raised goes into the pockets of church leaders. So you may have your reasons for hating and condemning the Catholic Church, but I suggest you take that indignation and spread it out. In the early days of the church, before Constantine made Christianity a main stream church of the Roman Empire AND the establishment of the Catholic church, church leaders had to have jobs to pay their daily expenses, they were not paid to preach. Often christians met in members houses to worship. Once the Catholic church was established in around 314 BCE, church leaders and priests got greedy. The history of the Catholic church has a few examples where one order of the church fought against the gathering of wealth by the church, and were either excommunicated or forced into silence. Let us not forget Pope Alexander VI, who had the surname Borgia. The man had a wife, mistresses, had at least one son in law murdered, plundered the coffers of the church for his own use, and according to some, owned a few brothels in Rome. The Catholic church has a long history of corruption and abuse. What do you expect from a Religious Organization that is over a thousand years old? It is time for all Christian denominations to return to the true roots of the faith.

SternSkipper -> RE: Should they Evolve, Stay the same, dissolve? (6/2/2012 9:10:24 PM)
quote: As I said, I have not been to mass in years for various reasons. And my problem is with organized religion as a whole. As for personal experience, I have met priests that lived the way they should and followed the teachings of Jesus faithfully, and I have met priests who left a lot to be desired. Long as you understand I said what I said on the basis of personal experience and not a hateful posture, we're cool.

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