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RE: Cyberattacks against Iran - 6/1/2012 8:31:52 PM   
erieangel


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The problem I see with all this fucking sabre rattling is that the US hasn't really EXPERIENCED war--not in the real sense--since the Civil War. Most Americans don't know the realities of war because it hasn't touched our lives, our cities, our loved ones; we haven't even been asked to pay for our recent wars in the form of higher taxes and other sacrifices as in WWII. We have an all-volunteer military, so hey, they signed up for this shit. And I don't see it ending until we open our eyes--which I don't see happening until some country or some terrorist organization does more than bring down a few buildings and killing a few thousand Americans.

In other words, folks, we keep this shit up and things are going to get real serious in this country sooner or later. Mark my words because we can not keep this up forever and not have somebody retaliate in kind.


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RE: Cyberattacks against Iran - 6/1/2012 8:47:17 PM   
Musicmystery


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What sabre rattling? This was real destruction carried out.
How would you have handled the Iranian nuclear threat?

The damage is long done. We proved with Afghanistan and Iraq, vs. Iran and N. Korea, that the only thing we listen to is nuclear capacity. That means getting nukes is the only option for dealing with the U.S.

That leaves the U.S. preventing them.

While Hawks in the House build more.


< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 6/1/2012 8:49:54 PM >

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RE: Cyberattacks against Iran - 6/2/2012 8:19:37 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
. Seems to be the case with most other times we've meddled in the Middle East.

Only MOST?
I was gonna say EVERY time it bites us on the ass.
One thing I have to say. Cyber attacks generally don't kill a coupla hundred thousand innocent civilians and destroy all the infrasrtucture that we then have to rebuild


I was hedging. As soon as I said "every time," someone would have jumped up with an example of when it didn't (or hasn't yet), or someone would have challenged me to list out all the times we've meddled (and probably held me accountable to even include the things which we have been accused of, but have denied [never mind that I wouldn't really doubt we were involved in most of them]) and the results of that meddling.

Cyber attacks on infrastructure, IMO, are acts of war. That they don't directly "kill a coupla hundred thousand innocent civilians and destroy all the infrastructure that we then have to rebuild," is kinda moot when it leads to physical war that does.

What gives us the right to treat it as an act of war, and respond thus, if it isn't a right for those we launch cyber attacks against to respond in the same manner?

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RE: Cyberattacks against Iran - 6/2/2012 9:00:53 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

Cyber attacks on infrastructure, IMO, are acts of war. That they don't directly "kill a coupla hundred thousand innocent civilians and destroy all the infrastructure that we then have to rebuild," is kinda moot when it leads to physical war that does.


1) How is this leading to physical war? It was done in lieu of that.

2) It addressed a growing nuclear threat from Iran. Targeted. Killed no one. Did the job. Even appeased Israel.

Surely you're not under the impression that other countries currently say, "Well, we can't go to war--that wouldn't be fair."

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RE: Cyberattacks against Iran - 6/2/2012 11:12:42 AM   
kdsub


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OK time to take the opposing side and the flack that comes with it.

Is it against the world law, at least the UN law, for Iran to produce nuclear weapons?

If it is and this program was designed to sabotage only the making of these unlawful weapons then should not the use of this weapon be lawful?

Otherwise is a beanbag shotgun or a taser illegal in the hands of the police when used to stop a crime?

Butch


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RE: Cyberattacks against Iran - 6/2/2012 12:09:29 PM   
kalikshama


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quote:

Is it against the world law, at least the UN law, for Iran to produce nuclear weapons?


Iran's nuclear programme: legal debate stirs over basis for US or Israeli attack

...legal authorities are confronting the challenge of constructing a legal case for attack, if it comes.

And already there is considerable dispute over the issue.

Alan Dershowitz, the renowned jurist and supporter of Israel, has argued that the US and the Jewish state can invoke a long-standing right under customary international law of "pro-active self-defence" as well as article 51 of the United Nations charter.

Sceptics counter that international law only permits military action in response to an imminent attack, or if one is under way. They say there is no immediate threat because, as the White House has said, there is no evidence Tehran is building a nuclear weapon.

Then there are those who argue that the legal grounds for a military assault have already been met because the US and Israel are already under attack from "terrorist organisations" sponsored by Iran.

There is considerable support among politicians who favour an attack on Iran for the view of Anthony D'Amato, a professor in international law at Northwestern University, who has argued cases before the European Court of Human Rights. He says using force to prevent Iran obtaining a nuclear weapon would uphold international law, not undermine it.

"Iran says it wants to push the Israelis into the sea and that they are constructing nuclear weapons. That's enough for me to say that cannot be allowed. If the US or Israel takes the initiative to block that action, it can hardly be said to be violating international law. It can only be preserving international law for future generations," he said.

"In order to preserve international law we have to defend it once in while. I think we have to defend it against rogue states or states that have expressed a hostile intentions, like Iran and like North Korea. The only reasonable thing to do is to take those weapons out. Remove that threat and the world is going to be safer."

But D'Amato's view is scorned by other specialists in international law.

Much of the the legal argument centres on the interpretation of one word: imminent.

Although the United Nations charter recognises the right of self-defence, it is imprecise. Lawyers look beyond the charter to an older standard in customary international law, established in the 19th century, allowing one state to use force to preempt an imminent attack by another.

That came out of a cross-border raid by British forces into New York state in 1837 to destroy an American ship, the SS Caroline, which was delivering aid to a rebellion in Canada. The British raiding party set fire to the Caroline and cast her adrift toward Niagara Falls. One American was killed.

In the ensuing diplomatic battle, London and Washington agreed on a treaty providing for a right of pre-emptive self-defence – more commonly spoken of today as a pre-emptive strike – but only when there is "instant, overwhelming" necessity, "leaving no choice of means, and no moment of deliberation".

That formula has long been regarded as an integral part of international law, but there are wide differences over how the "Caroline test" would apply to a US or Israeli attack on Iran.

D'Amato said the threat is imminent because of Tehran's rhetoric against Israel. He said the US and Israel are also entitled to act under a clause in the UN charter – article 2, paragraph 4 – requiring countries to refrain from "the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state".

"Let's ask the question: who would be violating that clause? Would it be the United States' attack on Iran or would it be Iran's threat against Israel? Who is the violator here? If Iran is in a war to the death with Israel, as they claim they are, and they are also preparing nuclear weapons against a small state, I think any reasonable person would look at that and say they are in violation of article 2 section 4 of the charter," he said.

But Kevin Heller, author of The Nuremberg Military Tribunals and the Origins of International Criminal Law, and who served as Human Rights Watch's external legal advisor on Saddam Hussein's trial, is dismissive of D'Amato's interpretation.

"To say that argument is profoundly flawed is an understatement. It may well be that by threatening the use of force Iran is in breach of the UN charter. But that couldn't possibly justify a military response," he said.

Heller said that whatever threat Iran my pose, it is not "imminent", as required by the Caroline test.

"In terms of Iran, I don't even think it's enough under the UN charter for the US to say Iran has a nuclear weapon. At a minimum, they would actually have to have a nuclear weapon, and they would have to issue some kind of concrete threat to use it against Israel or some other country before a military response would be acceptable," he said.

Bruce Ackerman, an influential constitutional law professor at Yale, is similarly sceptical of any claim of an imminent threat.

"The idea that the United States is under imminent threat from Iran is preposterous. It is not preposterous that Israel's under threat from Iran. It just isn't imminent," he said....

(in reply to kdsub)
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RE: Cyberattacks against Iran - 6/2/2012 9:48:03 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:


If it is and this program was designed to sabotage only the making of these unlawful weapons then should not the use of this weapon be lawful?

Otherwise is a beanbag shotgun or a taser illegal in the hands of the police when used to stop a crime?


Do we know how successful this really was? The article describes events of loads of computers at one plant offline and centrifuges being shut down. But Iran has a VERY widely distributed development program.
Not disputing anyone's claims I just seriously doubt Israel will take any options off the table because of it.
And while I would add that there can be pretty serious consequences to making cyberwar a mainstay of defense... The Chinese seem to have already let that genie out of the bottle more than a decade ago.

I would agree with your beanbag analogy. It's preferable to missiles ... When we're winning I mean


< Message edited by SternSkipper -- 6/2/2012 9:50:16 PM >


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RE: Cyberattacks against Iran - 6/3/2012 5:44:53 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
quote:

Cyber attacks on infrastructure, IMO, are acts of war. That they don't directly "kill a coupla hundred thousand innocent civilians and destroy all the infrastructure that we then have to rebuild," is kinda moot when it leads to physical war that does.

1) How is this leading to physical war? It was done in lieu of that.
2) It addressed a growing nuclear threat from Iran. Targeted. Killed no one. Did the job. Even appeased Israel.
Surely you're not under the impression that other countries currently say, "Well, we can't go to war--that wouldn't be fair."


1. Did you see the link I posted, along with the quoted portion? The gold-colored "respond thus?" The Headline: "U.S. reserves right to meet cyber attack with force" doesn't make the point that just because it didn't "kill a coupla hundred thousand innocent civilians and destroy all the infrastructure that we then have to rebuild" directly, that it can very well lead to a physical war that can? Just because Iran isn't large enough itself to take on the US doesn't make it right to bully them.
2. The action, in a vacuum, did just that. However, what is the fallout? It's a Liberal argument to make that if we raise tax rates, we increase revenues, without taking anything into consideration as to what effect the increased rates will have. Increased rates will lead to people sheltering more money from taxes, which could very easily reduce revenues Do Liberals even consider that? No. No, they don't.

Do you remember the electricity mess in Summer of 2004/5? A burp in the electrical grid lead to widespread outages that ended up traveling into Canada. That was a fuck up by one company in Ohio that happened to be unfortunate to occur on an outdated and poorly kept grid. Imagine if it turns out that China had been behind it with a cyber attack. What do you think the response would be? Would it be different if it was Russia? Brazil? Mexico? Iran?

No, the action, in and of itself, did not take a human toll, nor did it destroy structures that would need to be rebuilt. But, isn't it possible that it could lead to physical aggression?

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RE: Cyberattacks against Iran - 6/3/2012 7:53:40 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

But, isn't it possible that it could lead to physical aggression?


I wish logic were required in our schools. They could spend time on the significant difference between speculation and valid argument.

It's also silly speculation. There's physical aggression now. There's been physical aggression for quite some time. There's a significant threat of it getting worse left unchecked.

We could follow your plan -- sit around and smile, because then we won't offend anyone and they're all decide to be our best friends. Or we could follow Cheney's plan and bomb the fucking shit out of them--because that never poses the threat of more physical aggression in return. Or we could do this plan, hitting specifically a target destroying only what we wanted to destroy and killing no one. Hmmmm.

Are you under the impression that other governments aren't doing this already? Should we wait until they are far more sophisticated at it and attack us instead of wisely staying ahead of that curve? Do you believe that the Pentagon hasn't equally pursued defense mechanisms at the same time as offensive capability?

I'm tired of the remedial conversation. Believe what you want, and enjoy.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
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RE: Cyberattacks against Iran - 6/3/2012 10:51:41 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
I wish logic were required in our schools. They could spend time on the significant difference between speculation and valid argument.
It's also silly speculation. There's physical aggression now. There's been physical aggression for quite some time. There's a significant threat of it getting worse left unchecked.
We could follow your plan -- sit around and smile, because then we won't offend anyone and they're all decide to be our best friends. Or we could follow Cheney's plan and bomb the fucking shit out of them--because that never poses the threat of more physical aggression in return. Or we could do this plan, hitting specifically a target destroying only what we wanted to destroy and killing no one. Hmmmm.
Are you under the impression that other governments aren't doing this already? Should we wait until they are far more sophisticated at it and attack us instead of wisely staying ahead of that curve? Do you believe that the Pentagon hasn't equally pursued defense mechanisms at the same time as offensive capability?
I'm tired of the remedial conversation. Believe what you want, and enjoy.


[sarcasm] I bow to the uber superior intellect of Musicmystery.[/sarcasm]

So, are you agreeing with me that these cyber attacks are "acts of war?"

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RE: Cyberattacks against Iran - 6/3/2012 1:26:51 PM   
Moonhead


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Of course not. An "act of war" is having fuck all to do with a couple of ugly buildings getting knocked over in New York.

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RE: Cyberattacks against Iran - 6/3/2012 7:30:16 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

Of course not. An "act of war" is having fuck all to do with a couple of ugly buildings getting knocked over in New York.


Not so fast to unleash your Leprechauns on the Ohioan, are ya? Ya lipstick wearin housecat!


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RE: Cyberattacks against Iran - 6/4/2012 1:05:05 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

So, are you agreeing with me that these cyber attacks are "acts of war?"


Where have you been since 1979?

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RE: Cyberattacks against Iran - 6/4/2012 1:31:39 AM   
ResidentSadist


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Do you think when the big bite in the ass comes, when our unsavory deals, our true cohorts and shady allegiances are irrevocably and undeniably exposed as being oil motivated . . . do you think we will cop to it, drop all the pretense and just all out invade for the sake of controlling the oil? I mean go over, glass the place (nukes melting sand make glass) don radioactive suits and squeegee up all the oil.


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RE: Cyberattacks against Iran - 6/4/2012 1:38:52 AM   
Musicmystery


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I doubt it. We've been fucking with them since Eisenhower orchestrated the coup in 1953 under the guise of fighting communism.

Despite the "nuke-em" rhetoric thrown around sometimes, we can't do that. The weapons we have today are literally 20 times more powerful than the ones dropped on Japan. Look at the long range effects of just a radiation leak. Now imagine dropping these bombs. It would effect the entire globe for years and years.



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 6/4/2012 1:45:53 AM >

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RE: Cyberattacks against Iran - 6/4/2012 5:11:14 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
quote:

So, are you agreeing with me that these cyber attacks are "acts of war?"

Where have you been since 1979?


Just answer the question.

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RE: Cyberattacks against Iran - 6/4/2012 8:40:48 AM   
subrob1967


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I doubt it. We've been fucking with them since Eisenhower orchestrated the coup in 1953 under the guise of fighting communism.

Despite the "nuke-em" rhetoric thrown around sometimes, we can't do that. The weapons we have today are literally 20 times more powerful than the ones dropped on Japan. Look at the long range effects of just a radiation leak. Now imagine dropping these bombs. It would effect the entire globe for years and years.




We don't need nukes, we have fuel aired explosives... Drop a few 500lb FAE's and it's game over.

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RE: Cyberattacks against Iran - 6/4/2012 9:28:10 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
quote:

So, are you agreeing with me that these cyber attacks are "acts of war?"

Where have you been since 1979?


Just answer the question.

Learn to read.

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RE: Cyberattacks against Iran - 6/4/2012 10:41:02 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

quote:

Of course not. An "act of war" is having fuck all to do with a couple of ugly buildings getting knocked over in New York.


Not so fast to unleash your Leprechauns on the Ohioan, are ya? Ya lipstick wearin housecat!




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RE: Cyberattacks against Iran - 6/4/2012 11:59:07 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Just answer the question.

Learn to read.


Can't even answer a question directly, can ya?

I think that speaks volumes.

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Profile   Post #: 40
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