RE: Should we have the death penalty for rape? (Full Version)

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Fightdirecto -> RE: Should we have the death penalty for rape? (5/28/2012 5:24:26 AM)

The death penalty for any crime, and castration for the crime of rape, are the only two penalties I can think of that cannot be reversed if later evidence proves that the person was innocent of the crime for which they were wrongfully charged and wrongfully convicted.

Therefore, I oppose both, if only because of the stories of the two wrongfully charged and wrongfully convicted men I cited in my OP.




Moonhead -> RE: Should we have the death penalty for rape? (5/28/2012 5:38:00 AM)

As far as castration goes, there's that thing in the constitution about cruel and unusual punishments, as well.




kalikshama -> RE: Should we have the death penalty for rape? (5/28/2012 6:59:07 AM)

quote:

As pointed out in the Long Beach case, we can get "victims," who just flat make shit up.


Not very often. When you throw out the attitude of "it wasn't rape because he didn't use a gun," etc, it's about the same as false accusations of other crimes.

I dare you to define rape as only occurring by strangers in dark alleys by men using guns on women they do not know who were modestly dressed and sustained serious injuries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape

...FBI statistics

FBI reports consistently put the number of "unfounded" rape accusations around 8%. The average rate of unfounded reports for Index crimes is 2%.[2] However, "unfounded" is not synonymous with false allegation.[3] Bruce Gross of the Forensic Examiner's says that:

This statistic is almost meaningless, as many of the jurisdictions from which the FBI collects data on crime use different definitions of, or criteria for, "unfounded." That is, a report of rape might be classified as unfounded (rather than as forcible rape) if the alleged victim did not try to fight off the suspect, if the alleged perpetrator did not use physical force or a weapon of some sort, if the alleged victim did not sustain any physical injuries, or if the alleged victim and the accused had a prior sexual relationship. Similarly, a report might be deemed unfounded if there is no physical evidence or too many inconsistencies between the accuser's statement and what evidence does exist. As such, although some unfounded cases of rape may be false or fabricated, not all unfounded cases are false.[4]

British Home Office

The largest and most rigorous study was commissioned by the British Home Office and based on 2,643 sexual assault cases (Kelly, Lovett, and Regan, 2005). Of these, 8% were classified by the police department as false reports. Yet the researchers noted that some of these classifications were based simply on the personal judgments of the police investigators and were made in violation of official criteria for establishing a false allegation. Closer analysis of this category applying the Home Office counting rules for establishing a false allegation and excluding cases where the application of the cases where confirmation of the designation was uncertain reduced the percentage of false reports to 3%. The researchers concluded that "one cannot take all police designations at face value" and that "[t]here is an over-estimation of the scale of false allegations by both police officers and prosecutors." Moreover, they added:

The interviews with police officers and complainants’ responses show that despite the focus on victim care, a culture of suspicion remains within the police, even amongst some of those who are specialists in rape investigations. There is also a tendency to conflate false allegations with retractions and withdrawals, as if in all such cases no sexual assault occurred. This reproduces an investigative culture in which elements that might permit a designation of a false complaint are emphasised (later sections reveal how this also feeds into withdrawals and designation of ‘insufficient evidence’), at the expense of a careful investigation, in which the evidence collected is evaluated.[5][6][7]

Police in Victoria (Australia)

Another large-scale study was conducted in Australia, with 850 rapes reported to the Victoria police between 2000 and 2003 (Heenan & Murray, 2006). Using both quantitative and qualitative methods, the researchers examined 812 cases with sufficient information to make an appropriate determination, and found that 2.1% of these were classified by police as false reports. All of these complainants were then charged or threatened with charges for filing a false police report.[8]




Aswad -> RE: Should we have the death penalty for rape? (5/28/2012 4:22:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

it is a trespass on the person and should be treated as such.


You mean strap a chastity belt to the victim?

That's how I keep trespassers away...

... from my house, that is.

[:D]




fucktoyprincess -> RE: Should we have the death penalty for rape? (5/28/2012 5:25:26 PM)

I do not support the death penalty in general, so my answer is no.

Do I consider rape a serious crime? Yes.

Do I feel punishment should reflect the seriousness of the crime? Yes.

Do I feel cruel and unusual punishments are the mark of an uncivilized culture/society? Yes.

So, I'm not interested in killing a rapist, or dismembering them in any way, or torturing them, or any such thing. I think in a civilized society, if you can prove that someone committed a serious crime, then a very long prison sentence is the only reasonable alternative for punishment.




truckinslave -> RE: Should we have the death penalty for rape? (6/2/2012 12:36:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

I think most of these DNA-based exonerations are horse puckey.


Why?


Because no one in the history of crime has ever been convicted solely on the basis of blood type. Blood type was the only thing that could be determined from lab analysis of blood or semen prior to modern DNA analysis.

So the story is always some variation of this:

In 1981, Sue was found raped and murdered. Semen analysis determined her attacker to be A Neg. A woman- Ann- on the street gave a description of a man running from her apartment. A knife with a bloody fingerprint was discovered. Sue's parents were notified. They searched her apartment and said an heirloom broach was missing. The police recovered the broach from a pawnshop and ID'ed a suspect, John.

John was arrested.

John confessed.

Introduced as evidence at the plea bargain was the knife with John's fingerprint and the victim's blood; a lab report showing the semen matched John's blood type; testimony that Ann had picked John out of a lineup; and the broach, accompanied by statements from the parents.

John was imprisoned.

In 2011, over zealous attorneys got a court order to test the semen sample for DNA evidence. The lab could not prove the semen was John's.

John was released.

The DA's office elected not to try John again. The victorious defense name pronounced John "innocent" and "exonerated". The DA's office said: "no comment".

They said that not because they thought John was innocent, but because they and the state were trying to mitigate damages in the upcoming suit from John. They still know John was guilty, but they cannot re-try him. Evidence degrades. Ann, senile and blind, long ago gave an interview in which she recanted her identification (in exchange for the interviewer taking her cat when she went into the nursing home). Sue's parents are dead, the broach sold at an estate sale to an unknown buyer. And the evidence room lost the knife, perhaps in the fire of '97. They aren't sure.

The first pertinent fact is : evidence degrades. Cases- solid cases- disappear.
The second pertinent fact is: no one- no one- was ever convicted solely on the basis of blood type.

John? He had a partner, and DNA analysis doesn't work on mixed samples.

DNA is letting many a thug escape the hangman now, but will convict many more later.




Fightdirecto -> RE: Should we have the death penalty for rape? (6/2/2012 1:08:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
quote:

I think most of these DNA-based exonerations are horse puckey.


States manufcturing/falsifying evidence to convict the innocent
quote:

...the problem of the state manufacturing/falsifying and/or withholding evidence and its witnesses committing perjury to aid the state in obtaining convictions is so widespread as to border on being a rule rather than an exception.

The problem is intensified by the fact that the state actors and court officers do not view these justice-obstructing acts as crimes in and of themselves; the "crime" is getting caught.


* Concepcion Basanot of the Baltimore County Police Lab gave intentionally false testimony about blood type . He was allowed to retire.

* Forensic serologist [blood type expert] Pamela A. Fish, PhD., of the Illinois State Police Lab reportedly gave false testimony in nine cases, including trials that resulted in wrongful rape convictions. Fish was transferred.

* Forensic serologist [blood type expert] Mary Furlong of the Illinois State Police Lab found that the defendant’s blood type was different than that found in the female victim — but failed to tell anyone (Jones v. City of Chicago, 856 F2D 985, 991-993).

* Detective Robert Perez, the crimes investigator for the infamous Wenatchee, Washington, child sex ring scandal, used his own children to build a case and was accused of using threats to tally 27,726 counts of child rape — all of which were later completely discredited.

* Donald K. Phillips of the Washington State Patrol Crime Lab testified that he was a chemistry major when he only had a degree in agricultural science. He was fired, reinstated and then resigned.

* Sandra Anderson of Detroit Great Lakes Search and Rescue planted evidence so a dog could get a positive hit.

* An unnamed technician from the Pennsylvania Police Lab falsified evidence that convicted a man in 1964.

* Janice Road Cap of the Pennsylvania Police Lab falsified evidence that convicted a man who was freed after 28 years in prison.

* San Antonio, Texas, police officer and forensic chemist Fed Zain (also on the run from West Virginia investigators, now deceased) perjured serology [blood] tests.

The paragraph above may cause a chuckle because of the absurdities it implies, but men and women are in prison for decades on lies that may not be discovered until after the prisoner dies of old age or lethal injection — or never discovered at all.

So if the blood type test introduced a evidence by the State said one thing and later DNA tests showed something else, is it that the later DNA test was incorrect - or was it that the original blood test was falsified by a police lab technician in order to get a conviction?




Real0ne -> RE: Should we have the death penalty for rape? (6/2/2012 1:19:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

The death penalty for any crime, and castration for the crime of rape, are the only two penalties I can think of that cannot be reversed if later evidence proves that the person was innocent of the crime for which they were wrongfully charged and wrongfully convicted.

Therefore, I oppose both, if only because of the stories of the two wrongfully charged and wrongfully convicted men I cited in my OP.



if not for out totally corrupt political and judicial system I would say sure hang em high.

Now does that include the gubafia raping our wallets?  definite yes




FullCircle -> RE: Should we have the death penalty for rape? (6/3/2012 12:06:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto
Should accused rapists get a speedy trial and an equally speedy execution if convicted?

Nobody should get a speedy trial, why bother having the trial if you are measuring it's worth by how quick it is?

Killing people doesn't seem the right approach. Sure it works for a while and then someone asks 'Since killing rapists is working so well for us should we also be killing thieves?' It's the thin end of the wedge I tells you and before you know it you are living in the US, with their crazy justice system based on sentence bartering. If you plead guilty you can spend two years in prison but if you plead innocent (and god forbid want someone to try and establish your guilt) we'll cut your balls off. Get your plea bargaining fiasco sorted out first and then you can get into the realms of talking about consistent and appropriate punishment.




GotSteel -> RE: Should we have the death penalty for rape? (6/4/2012 9:51:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Winterapple
Since rape involves someone taking overpowering another
through force or coercion...


That's not necessarily true, our society considers it to be the case that there are circumstances which negate a participants consent such as intoxication or youth.




Bishop1984 -> RE: Should we have the death penalty for rape? (6/4/2012 9:58:44 AM)

Actually, that's not true, either, GotSteel. Our society also believes that it's possible to revoke consent *after the fact.*

It's illegal to prosecute someone for something that wasn't illegal at the time. That rule doesn't apply to "rape."




kalikshama -> RE: Should we have the death penalty for rape? (6/4/2012 3:42:51 PM)

Would you be so kind as to flesh those two concepts out a bit, preferably with links to examples?

Perhaps you agree with Kristen on "rape rape" vs "rape-ished"?

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-february-2-2011/rape-victim-abortion-funding




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