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RE: Atheists more compassionate than believers, study f... - 5/16/2012 3:25:18 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Is not divine retribution a major tennent of religion?
Is not divine retribution the punishment for not doing what god has told you to do?


Fwiw, I've spent my life in and around churches (Catholic, Episcopal, Unitarian), and I've never heard fear of divine retribution cited as a reason for moral behavior.

Ymmv, I realize.

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RE: Atheists more compassionate than believers, study f... - 5/16/2012 3:30:47 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

To answer that question requires accepting its embedded premise, namely, that religious people do the right thing only because they fear divine retribution.

Isn't that the underlying argument when people claim moral behavior is impossible for the areligious?

No. The argument asserts a need for moral standards that are not susceptible of becoming arbitrary.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

And when it suits someone's purpose to argue the other side of the fallacy, then we will hear how Christians think they can get away with anything because they know they'll be "forgiven."

That's called "once saved always saved" and is quite common in Baptist and evangelical churches. It is certainly no fallacy...

Of course it's a fallacy. They are both fallacies, because reasoning based on fewer options than actually exist cannot logically support a conclusion. "Once saved always saved," is a solution to a false dilemma. We may not need "saving" in the first place.

K.

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RE: Atheists more compassionate than believers, study f... - 5/16/2012 3:43:57 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

To answer that question requires accepting its embedded premise, namely, that religious people do the right thing only because they fear divine retribution.

Isn't that the underlying argument when people claim moral behavior is impossible for the areligious?

No. The argument asserts a need for moral standards that are not susceptible of becoming arbitrary.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

And when it suits someone's purpose to argue the other side of the fallacy, then we will hear how Christians think they can get away with anything because they know they'll be "forgiven."

That's called "once saved always saved" and is quite common in Baptist and evangelical churches. It is certainly no fallacy...

Of course it's a fallacy. They are both fallacies, because reasoning based on fewer options than actually exist cannot logically support a conclusion. "Once saved always saved," is a solution to a false dilemma. We may not need "saving" in the first place.

K.


You may be correct as far as the schemes/logic of reason are concerned but who ever said Christianity is reasonable? I thought the essential element in Christian belief is that Jesus is the Savior. John 11:25, and all that.

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RE: Atheists more compassionate than believers, study f... - 5/16/2012 5:10:48 PM   
littlewonder


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

At our church what we donate, 75% right now goes towards missions to help build churches in other places, or giving money to other pastors to help them start a church in their area,

Maybe if you think about it you can see why some people do not view that as charitable giving.



By building missions we can help more people. The bringing everyone together under one roof, the group can organize so that they may be able to reach their community in need.

The more hands to help the more mouths they feed.


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RE: Atheists more compassionate than believers, study f... - 5/16/2012 5:41:17 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

To answer that question requires accepting its embedded premise, namely, that religious people do the right thing only because they fear divine retribution.

Isn't that the underlying argument when people claim moral behavior is impossible for the areligious?

No. The argument asserts a need for moral standards that are not susceptible of becoming arbitrary.

In context that is one silly answer. Are you really asserting that christian "morality" isn't arbitrary?

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

And when it suits someone's purpose to argue the other side of the fallacy, then we will hear how Christians think they can get away with anything because they know they'll be "forgiven."

That's called "once saved always saved" and is quite common in Baptist and evangelical churches. It is certainly no fallacy...

Of course it's a fallacy. They are both fallacies, because reasoning based on fewer options than actually exist cannot logically support a conclusion. "Once saved always saved," is a solution to a false dilemma. We may not need "saving" in the first place.

K.

It is based on bible language and is not a fallacy. In the adherents belief system they do need to be saved and the doctrine applies in much the same way Catholic confession serves to "purify" the soul to retain its place in heaven.


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RE: Atheists more compassionate than believers, study f... - 5/16/2012 5:42:37 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

At our church what we donate, 75% right now goes towards missions to help build churches in other places, or giving money to other pastors to help them start a church in their area,

Maybe if you think about it you can see why some people do not view that as charitable giving.



By building missions we can help more people. The bringing everyone together under one roof, the group can organize so that they may be able to reach their community in need.

The more hands to help the more mouths they feed.


By showing up uninvited and building a church and doing everything they can to make the locals dependent on hand outs predicated on conversion you mean.

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RE: Atheists more compassionate than believers, study f... - 5/16/2012 5:56:17 PM   
littlewonder


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Status: offline 		they don't show up uninvited. They're invited by either the community or a pastor looking to build his own church.

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RE: Atheists more compassionate than believers, study f... - 5/16/2012 7:55:33 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

they don't show up uninvited. They're invited by either the community or a pastor looking to build his own church.


No one invited proselytizers to the home of my ancestors. At various points in history, throughout Asia and Africa, missionaries of many different faiths arrived uninvited. My ancestors in India already had their own culture and religions when missionaries arrived. Their culture and religions predate Christianity by thousands of years. No one invited the missionaries. Perhaps they were invited to other places on the globe, but in much of Asia and Africa, they arrived uninvited.

< Message edited by fucktoyprincess -- 5/16/2012 7:56:04 PM >

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RE: Atheists more compassionate than believers, study f... - 5/16/2012 8:00:33 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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< Message edited by fucktoyprincess -- 5/16/2012 8:02:15 PM >

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RE: Atheists more compassionate than believers, study f... - 5/16/2012 8:02:52 PM   
littlewonder


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Status: offline 		I can't control what others did or do so I don't really concern myself about it. When I talk I talk about me and those around me and our community and people and experiences.

My ancestors did lots of things. Does that mean I'm now responsible for all their bad deeds? If so then you may as well shoot me now.


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RE: Atheists more compassionate than believers, study f... - 5/16/2012 8:04:48 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

I can't control what others did or do so I don't really concern myself about it. When I talk I talk about me and those around me and our community and people and experiences.

My ancestors did lots of things. Does that mean I'm now responsible for all their bad deeds? If so then you may as well shoot me now.



The missionary work that started centuries ago continues to this day in India. It is going on NOW. I am ALSO talking about me and those around me and my community of people and experiences. Both in the past, and TODAY.

Again, if one believes in freedom of religion then leave people who already believe in their own god alone. I do not see why they need to convert to someone else's religions when they are already believers of their own faith. Why do they need your, or anyone else's religion. They ARE believers. They just happen to believe in a different god.

< Message edited by fucktoyprincess -- 5/16/2012 8:11:11 PM >

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RE: Atheists more compassionate than believers, study f... - 5/16/2012 8:09:09 PM   
Arturas


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quote:

Naturally, if we accept your claim that only 10% of churchgoers are "real" Christians,


I certainly never meant to lead you into a belief that 10 percent are "real" Christians. The 10 percent are the core of the church but the other 90 percent are "real" Christians also. You presume "real" Christians meet some kind of minimum standard when, if you remember your earlier experience in church, you would know no Christian is perfect and the only minimum standard is a desire to follow God's word. A desire.

Now, those who have grown in their faith, over years, to become part of that 10 percent core group are recognized by their works, their good deeds that seem second nature to them. The other 90 percent do good works also but to a lessor degree and most of their good works are limited to supporting internal church operations and giving to missions works that then enable the 10 percent core group to do 110 percent of the good works that are very much in line with the adjective "compassionate".

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RE: Atheists more compassionate than believers, study f... - 5/16/2012 8:10:20 PM   
littlewonder


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Status: offline 		Again, not my church, not our missionaries, I don't live in India and we work locally. Not all missionaries are the same just as not all atheists are the same.

Again, I don't control what others do.


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RE: Atheists more compassionate than believers, study f... - 5/16/2012 8:21:04 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

Again, not my church, not our missionaries, I don't live in India and we work locally. Not all missionaries are the same just as not all atheists are the same.

Again, I don't control what others do.



Sorry for the misunderstanding, but in your original post you never specified where the mission work was taking place.

My mother lives in the U.S. She is a Hindu. She is not interested in converting either. She has her own culture and religion within which she was raised. And it is a culture and religion that predates Christianity by thousands of years. So that is great that you work locally, but please respect the fact that people who were raised in other faiths are still entitled to their own culture and their own faith. Otherwise, freedom of religion doesn't mean anything.

Please note, I am basing my answer on your use of the word "missionary". Missionary work has a particular meaning. The bulk of "missionary" work done by all Christian denominations is proselytizing. If this is not what you mean by "mission" or "missionary" work, please clarify, because to most people, mission means proselytizing. If what you mean is voluntary work, or local charitable work (that your church treats completely separate from spreading the word of god to encourage conversion), then that is something different and please disregard my comments.

< Message edited by fucktoyprincess -- 5/16/2012 8:22:52 PM >

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RE: Atheists more compassionate than believers, study f... - 5/16/2012 8:24:41 PM   
Arturas


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quote:

Of course they also tossed their daughter out on the street in high-school when they found out she was gay. Personally I can't help but think we really could do without more of those kinds of churches.


I hardly believe they tossed an underage daughter out on the street. That would be illegal for one. So, if she was of age then I would suggest it was not just because she was gay but even if it was "my roof, my rules" applies here and this does not in any manner support your comment on "those kinds of churches" unless there is something else we should know that would substantiate such a view of churches.

Well wishes,
Arturas

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RE: Atheists more compassionate than believers, study f... - 5/16/2012 8:29:52 PM   
Arturas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas
The truth is, "believers" are all generous without equal. What is missed in this "study" is that only ten to thrith perrcent on average of any church are mature "believers" who order their lives in agreement with their faith, their belief. The rest are those who lack real passionate belief and so they do not order their life and their works based on being a "believer". These are the "children" of the faith who are still growing in that faith but lack the great works derived from such belief, such faith, which is where one can get the impression believers are not as generous as you would think.

Looks like todays logical fallacy is "No True Scotsman."




Why do you say so?

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RE: Atheists more compassionate than believers, study f... - 5/16/2012 8:31:34 PM   
hlen5


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Status: offline 		I've only read the first 7 posts, but could it be that modesty might prevent the believers from enumerating each charitable act?

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RE: Atheists more compassionate than believers, study f... - 5/16/2012 8:33:10 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		missionary within a church simply means going to someplace else, be it in their own state, country or another continent, to root another church or group. It does not mean proselytizing. Yeah, sure some do that but not all missionaries do that and it's not just a catholic thing or even a christian thing. Other religions do the same thing all the time.


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RE: Atheists more compassionate than believers, study f... - 5/16/2012 8:43:03 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

missionary within a church simply means going to someplace else, be it in their own state, country or another continent, to root another church or group. It does not mean proselytizing. Yeah, sure some do that but not all missionaries do that and it's not just a catholic thing or even a christian thing. Other religions do the same thing all the time.


How does one root another church or group without having people join the church or group? Do you just move existing people of your faith to the new place? Or do you only recruit people in the new area who are already of your faith? And if people are joining and they are not of your faith, do they not have to convert? Or does your faith allow people to fully participate in all aspects of your religion without conversion? (There are religions that don't require conversion). Again, perhaps I misunderstand you.

Proselytize - to induce someone to convert to one's own religious faith.

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RE: Atheists more compassionate than believers, study f... - 5/16/2012 8:46:44 PM   
littlewonder


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Status: offline 		We don't have a conversion process. You are free to come and go as you please. And when they root a church there are people already in that area...the ones who invited us, who are needing help in building up their church and through word of mouth, others inviting others, etc....who come to the church. No one goes out and hands out pamphlets, no one knocks on your door and no one tells you you're going to hell. All the church asks is that if you wish to be closer to god that you live an intentional life meaning you make a choice every single day to be one with God and his choices for you. If you don't that's fine too. Your choice.

And like I said, it's not just christianity that does it. Others religions do also.


< Message edited by littlewonder -- 5/16/2012 8:47:19 PM >

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