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European Court of Human Rights allows terrorist extradi... - 4/10/2012 2:13:01 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		After lengthy appeals going back years several terrorists held in the UK are likely to be tried in the US.

I, for one, didnt expect to hear the ECHR rule against the suspected terrorists.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17657814

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17662054

The second link is the profiles of those involved. Everyone in the Uk will be glad to see the back of Abu Hamza, currently in jail for crimes involving support for terrorism. I seem to recall his son was jailed in Yemen for terror attacks on UK tourists.
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RE: European Court of Human Rights allows terrorist ext... - 4/10/2012 3:21:08 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		This is sad news. Traditionally extradition of people accused of politically motivated crimes has been resisted because of the obvious potential for abuse. This has now been abandoned it seems.

Will one of the first people to be extradited that computer hacker who cracked the US Defence Dept's systems? Will it enable Assange's extradition? One of the few defences against extradition for any trumped up charge a vengeful government might dream up goes up in smoke. "Extraordinary rendition" and the ongoing charade of innocents incarcerated alongside the monsters at Gitmo tell us what the future holds

While no one holds a brief for Abu Hamza's of this world, who else is going to be caught up in the net? Yet another traditional civil liberty is sacrificed at the altar of fighting 'terrorism', the same terrorism that as often as not, the very governments seeking their opponents extradition have been instrumental in creating.

'Opposition to terrorism' has triumphed over human and democratic rights again. Soon there won't be any of the civil liberties we are supposed to defending left to defend. Which means of course that the terrorists will have won and that victory will be handed to them by the Govts of the West on a platter.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 4/10/2012 3:22:32 AM >

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RE: European Court of Human Rights allows terrorist ext... - 4/10/2012 8:59:31 AM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Everyone in the Uk will be glad to see the back of Abu Hamza, currently in jail for crimes involving support for terrorism. I seem to recall his son was jailed in Yemen for terror attacks on UK tourists.

Maybe not everyone in the UK http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgP_-l5lF8w

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RE: European Court of Human Rights allows terrorist ext... - 4/10/2012 3:45:51 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

This is sad news. Traditionally extradition of people accused of politically motivated crimes has been resisted because of the obvious potential for abuse. This has now been abandoned it seems.

Will one of the first people to be extradited that computer hacker who cracked the US Defence Dept's systems? Will it enable Assange's extradition? One of the few defences against extradition for any trumped up charge a vengeful government might dream up goes up in smoke. "Extraordinary rendition" and the ongoing charade of innocents incarcerated alongside the monsters at Gitmo tell us what the future holds

While no one holds a brief for Abu Hamza's of this world, who else is going to be caught up in the net? Yet another traditional civil liberty is sacrificed at the altar of fighting 'terrorism', the same terrorism that as often as not, the very governments seeking their opponents extradition have been instrumental in creating.

'Opposition to terrorism' has triumphed over human and democratic rights again. Soon there won't be any of the civil liberties we are supposed to defending left to defend. Which means of course that the terrorists will have won and that victory will be handed to them by the Govts of the West on a platter.


Hardly a sad day for those of us in the UK Tweaks. In each and everycase the law has been followed to the letter until all avenues of appeal have been used. In this case not just UK law but European law. While you could argue a case for the Nat West Three, any computer hacker knew exactly what he was doing. McKinnon was a computer administrator and admitted leaving threats on US computer systems that he had hacked into.

Whilst I agree the playing fields on extradition are not level, they are legal, after that pratt Brown/or was it Blair allowed the current extradition treaty to be signed.

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RE: European Court of Human Rights allows terrorist ext... - 4/10/2012 3:54:44 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
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Status: offline 		Tweaks. I just want to add you are right about terror laws creeping into other areas, here in the UK and in the US. The UK equivelant of the Patriot Act has also been used for other reasons. One such case was an old guy a few years ago protesting at the Labour Party conference. It is obnoxious and far from Cameron stopping it, he has continued it. I swear I would vote for Clegg and his party if they would just get a clue as to how to run the country.

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RE: European Court of Human Rights allows terrorist ext... - 4/10/2012 4:03:55 PM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline 		While I have no sympathy for the cleric and his buddies,.. I have been against the Americanization of non-US countries extradition laws for a long time now... The US can now get anyone they want in the various countries that have kissed US arse and allowed changes to their laws.. You do not even have to have stepped on US soil for them to pluck you in the middle of the night and toss your butt in jail.. They demonize anyone that is on their radar.. one outragous example (imo) is the extradition of Canadian pot advocate and pot seed seller.. Marc Emery now sits in a US jail for 5 years for the "crime" of selling pot seeds (which is a gray area in Canadian law and no one has ever gone to jail in Canada for that).. the US govt calls him a "drug dealer" and had him on the DEA's top 10 most wanted drug dealers list.. The US govt has done similar things to other Canadian pot seed sellers.. This is seriously fucked up!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Emery



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RE: European Court of Human Rights allows terrorist ext... - 4/10/2012 5:02:32 PM   
SoftBonds


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Tweaks. I just want to add you are right about terror laws creeping into other areas, here in the UK and in the US. The UK equivelant of the Patriot Act has also been used for other reasons. One such case was an old guy a few years ago protesting at the Labour Party conference. It is obnoxious and far from Cameron stopping it, he has continued it. I swear I would vote for Clegg and his party if they would just get a clue as to how to run the country.


Does it allow someone in your executive branch to decide someone is a "terrorist," without having to go to the judicial branch or offer any proof, and based on that decision, lock them up indefinitely without even telling their family why they disappeared???

On the plus side, the energy from Jefferson, Adams, and Hamilton spinning in their graves is going to be harnessed as clean energy. They are spinning so fast that each founding father provides about a gigawatt of power...

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RE: European Court of Human Rights allows terrorist ext... - 4/10/2012 5:39:00 PM   
Anaxagoras


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From: Eire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
In each and everycase the law has been followed to the letter until all avenues of appeal have been used. In this case not just UK law but European law.

As far as I understand it, there isn't any question of these people going to Guantanamo or being subjected to particularly harsh treatment. That was the whole reason for these hearings, and the extended delays. The European Court found that the relevant institution where they were kept would be better than many European prisons.

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RE: European Court of Human Rights allows terrorist ext... - 4/11/2012 7:12:33 AM   
Politesub53


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Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SoftBonds


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Tweaks. I just want to add you are right about terror laws creeping into other areas, here in the UK and in the US. The UK equivelant of the Patriot Act has also been used for other reasons. One such case was an old guy a few years ago protesting at the Labour Party conference. It is obnoxious and far from Cameron stopping it, he has continued it. I swear I would vote for Clegg and his party if they would just get a clue as to how to run the country.


Does it allow someone in your executive branch to decide someone is a "terrorist," without having to go to the judicial branch or offer any proof, and based on that decision, lock them up indefinitely without even telling their family why they disappeared???

On the plus side, the energy from Jefferson, Adams, and Hamilton spinning in their graves is going to be harnessed as clean energy. They are spinning so fast that each founding father provides about a gigawatt of power...


Well there is a plethora of evidence against the terrorists concerned. Many known terrorist have been freed in the UK due to a lack of credible evidence. Abu Hamza is wanted not only by the US but by Jordan, he wasnt extradited to Jordon for fear that evidence against him was obtained by torture. So in that case the law worked for him, this time it has gone agaisnt him but at least he has had due process.

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RE: European Court of Human Rights allows terrorist ext... - 4/11/2012 7:16:57 AM   
Politesub53


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Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

As far as I understand it, there isn't any question of these people going to Guantanamo or being subjected to particularly harsh treatment. That was the whole reason for these hearings, and the extended delays. The European Court found that the relevant institution where they were kept would be better than many European prisons.



Nonsense, the European court didnt look into EU prison conditions, you and I both know that. They only looked into the conditions he may be held under in the US, and the court found those acceptable. It is debatable as to the harsness of being held long term in solitary, as he is likely to in a supermax prison. I would thing that long term, that has to have an effect on the mind. You are right in that there no suggestion they will be held in Gitmo.

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RE: European Court of Human Rights allows terrorist ext... - 4/11/2012 8:45:08 AM   
Anaxagoras


Posts: 3086
Joined: 5/9/2009
From: Eire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
As far as I understand it, there isn't any question of these people going to Guantanamo or being subjected to particularly harsh treatment. That was the whole reason for these hearings, and the extended delays. The European Court found that the relevant institution where they were kept would be better than many European prisons.

Nonsense, the European court didnt look into EU prison conditions, you and I both know that. They only looked into the conditions he may be held under in the US, and the court found those acceptable. It is debatable as to the harsness of being held long term in solitary, as he is likely to in a supermax prison. I would thing that long term, that has to have an effect on the mind. You are right in that there no suggestion they will be held in Gitmo.

The issue of the hearings was whether the prisoners would be subjected to inhumane conditions. Thus they would have had to consider those conditions. They found, as also stated in the report you posted a link to, that the conditions of supermax prisons were better than many European prisons.

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RE: European Court of Human Rights allows terrorist ext... - 4/11/2012 9:23:15 AM   
MrBukani


Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline 		I am still of the opinion we created the muslim terrorism.

< Message edited by MrBukani -- 4/11/2012 9:24:22 AM >

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RE: European Court of Human Rights allows terrorist ext... - 4/11/2012 9:29:52 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

The issue of the hearings was whether the prisoners would be subjected to inhumane conditions. Thus they would have had to consider those conditions. They found, as also stated in the report you posted a link to, that the conditions of supermax prisons were better than many European prisons.


My bad...I missed that so stand corrected.

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RE: European Court of Human Rights allows terrorist ext... - 4/11/2012 1:54:20 PM   
Kirata


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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

While you could argue a case for the Nat West Three, any computer hacker knew exactly what he was doing. McKinnon was a computer administrator and admitted leaving threats on US computer systems that he had hacked into.

This whole Gary McKinnon case twists my tail. The US's claims against McKinnon are overblown bullshit. For starters, even calling him a "hacker" amounts to calling anybody who can microwave a frozen fucking dinner a "chef".

Gary McKinnon Interview

K.

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RE: European Court of Human Rights allows terrorist ext... - 4/12/2012 2:11:10 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Kirata, thanks for the link. If McKinnon could break into US computers so easily, with readily available software, it doesnt say much for US computer security systems.

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RE: European Court of Human Rights allows terrorist ext... - 4/12/2012 9:43:48 AM   
SoftBonds


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Kirata, thanks for the link. If McKinnon could break into US computers so easily, with readily available software, it doesnt say much for US computer security systems.


It ain't that easy!!!
First, password security. You can require passwords be a certain length, require special characters, and not allow folks to use the 100 most common passwords, and someone will still use "GodIsMyShepard12#$" as a password and get quickly hacked. Or they use their government password as their yahoo mail password too, to make it easy to remember...
Second, size of the area you are trying to secure. I used to work at a part of one part of the government that handled purchasing and contracts. Over 1000 virtual servers, each it's own target for a hacker. Now think about the fact that we were one small part of the government. Now granted, we didn't handle top-secret stuff, but still.
Third, the patchwork problem. The reason we needed 1000 virtual servers was to run all the different types of support programs that had been determined to be "stable," for a given program. I remember how we were going to have to re-design a program because it was supported by another program that would no longer be supported by Oracle, so no guarantee that future security holes would have patches issued. That said, imagine trying to make sure you patch hundreds of thousands of programs on over a thousand servers. And this ignores the possibility of "zero day," hacks or the time it takes a company to create a patch for a discovered vulnerability.
Now someone might say "then redesign it to work on fewer programs and servers, and design with security in mind in the first place," but that takes a lot of money, and frankly we don't have it right now. Anyway, we have to run it all on windows machines, and microcrap still programs everything in C++, which is why so many buffer-overflow hacks work...

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RE: European Court of Human Rights allows terrorist ext... - 4/12/2012 10:14:53 AM   
kdsub


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