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RE: Experienced dog owners, I need your opinion - 4/10/2012 1:18:06 AM

Dvr22999874

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you have to decide who you are keeping the animal alive for................is it for it's own quality of life or is it for you ?

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RE: Experienced dog owners, I need your opinion - 4/10/2012 4:32:03 AM

VanessaChaland

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I rescue a lot of dogs and cats from no-kill shelters. Some, sadly, just have medical issues that would bankrupt the Vatican. I just weigh the dollar amount of trying to save one versus what that same amount of cash could do for X amount of other unwanted puppies and kitties and decide from there. Sucks, but you just keep trying to help as many as you can. :)

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RE: Experienced dog owners, I need your opinion - 4/10/2012 4:56:42 AM

ChatteParfaitt

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What does the vet say?

Does he need surgery or chemo?

What are the costs involved?

What are the chances of a full recovery?

Although it seems very hard hearted to weigh up the dog's life based on financial considerations, most of us aren't made of money and have no choice in the matter. So do your due diligence, and then make a decision *you* can live with.

Whatever you decide, don't beat yourself up about it. You can only do what you can do.

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RE: Experienced dog owners, I need your opinion - 4/10/2012 7:34:02 AM

Iamsemisweet

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I feel it is a different decision with dogs. The people I have known who have done it for their dogs have invariably regretted it. Dogs don't live as long as us, so 6 months of suffering through chemo is a huge proportion of their lives.

In any case, I have a plan. I am going to pay for some more extensive testing so I can have a more definite prognosis. If surgery will buy him a year or two, I will do it. I am going to make clear to the vet what my budget is, though, and I am going to stick to it.

I really owe it to the dog, he has been a brave and loving companion. He, and my other dogs, made it possible for me to live alone in my house in the woods for as long as I did, since they made me feel safe. I am very grateful to him. He isn't my heart dog, but he has been a good, albeit expensive, boy, nonetheless.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

I would never do radiation or chemo with my dogs. I have known people who have done that and spent a lot of money for a low quality of life for the poor dog. I don't object to paying for the surgery to remove the tumor, though. It's about 800 bucks, which is about what I would spend on a dog this old, who is otherwise very healthy.

I disagree with that a bit, I went through chemo after cancer surgery about 15 years ago, the reason why I'm still around, yep, it was pretty hellish but I'm clear now and have been for a long time, and from what I have heard chemo has come a damned long way and some people don't suffer the sickness and nausea anymore. If there was a fighting chance, I would let the animal have it, but if it would be just prolonging long term suffering, that would be cruelty. Let me put it this way, if I had the choice of being miserable but getting my life and quality of life back - yes. If I could live but would suffer permanent pain and nausea - NO.

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RE: Experienced dog owners, I need your opinion - 4/10/2012 8:33:17 AM

LaTigresse

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One thing I have to constantly remind myself when it comes to my furry babies.

It's isn't the length of the life, but the quality. If I have a dog that has always enjoyed a very active life and they develop a medical condition that limits their ability to do what they love, then what is the quality left? Even if they are young, there would be no pain, they would still not be able to live the life they enjoy.

Death is not a bad thing. Being able to provide a painless death to a loved pet is one of the greatest luxuries I can imagine.

I think we create too much guilt for ourselves in this regard. We put our weird death hang ups into it. It's that whole "OMG I am KILLING my baby!" And we make the death out as the worst option. When in fact, the reality is that keeping them alive is often the very worst. Yet we use our selfishness, our hangups, and justify the very thing that is the most miserable for the animal.

Keeping an animal alive for as long as possible is not a moral gold star. Just as providing a painless death to a young animal is not a black mark.

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RE: Experienced dog owners, I need your opinion - 4/10/2012 9:22:53 AM

kdsub

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My opinion...which may have already been expressed... is to keep him as comfortable and pain free as possible... And when the disease progresses to the point he can not have a reasonable enjoyable pain free existence then you should provide him a loving exit from this life.

Butch

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RE: Experienced dog owners, I need your opinion - 4/10/2012 9:28:58 AM

LunaM

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What did the vet say? Do they think it needs to be removed? Is the cancer aggressive? Have you run any tests such as a biopsy or a needle aspirite? Those run fairly cheaply.
It comes down to if the dog has a good quality of life and if he can live pain free and still do the things he enjoys doing. As soon as he seems to be lethargic, lose interest in eating, the pain meds aren't working anymore, and his quality of life is suffering then it's time to say goodbye.

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RE: Experienced dog owners, I need your opinion - 4/10/2012 10:16:15 AM

kalikshama

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quote:

I would never do radiation or chemo with my dogs. I have known people who have done that and spent a lot of money for a low quality of life for the poor dog. I don't object to paying for the surgery to remove the tumor, though. It's about 800 bucks, which is about what I would spend on a dog this old, who is otherwise very healthy.

I'm sorry :(

Our husky had multiple aggressive lymphoma tumors and the vet recommended against surgery. The four rounds of chemo only gave him 6 extra months and the fourth round really diminished his QOL. I recommend surgery for you unless the vet says tumors will keep coming back.

I did save a considerable amount money by not buying meds from the vet but instead getting human class drugs from Canada, independent pharmacies, and Walmart - the $70 "for his white blood cells" med from the vet turned out to be a $4 antibiotic >_<

Despite the price shopping, I still spent at least double what the vet originally estimated.

< Message edited by kalikshama -- 4/10/2012 10:17:54 AM >

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RE: Experienced dog owners, I need your opinion - 4/10/2012 10:20:39 AM

Iamsemisweet

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The vet, I should add, is this young woman who is just a little time out of vet school. My regular vet has left that practice. While the new vet seems bright, my experience sometimes is that people just out of school are so caught up in the science and the excitement of what CAN be done that they don't always think about what is right for the animal. I don't know enough about her to say, at this point. I am seeking other professional points of view.
Thanks for the suggestion about the cheaper drugs, Kalik. That is helpful to know.

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RE: Experienced dog owners, I need your opinion - 4/10/2012 10:23:00 AM

needlesandpins

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my old BC boy was pts last september. he was 14-15 years old, lived outside, and was the best guard dog i have ever had. in the end he was suffering with his back/hips in the cold, going blind and deaf, had lost continence and still refused to come inside the house. i had decided that i'd be letting him go before this winter set in because i didn't want him going through another. however, he also had a tumour under his tail. i also decided not to have that treated as it wasn't affecting him in any way, but that should it start to do so that would be it. sadly it took him quicker than i had planned for, but not by much.

i'm still devastated, but i know my dog had a good life and i did him a service at the end to repay him for his loyalty and protection by not letting him suffer. i never feel bad for my animals when i have them pts because i know i am doing the best for them, although it's not the best thing for me. if finances have to be taken into consideration than i look at it this way; what will the money give them? is the extra time quality time? but i do not have endless money and i can not always spend on one at the expence of the others. i'm more than willing to go without myself, but i won't let others.

i'm sure your vet will help you decide what to do for the best, but if money is a deciding factor then don't feel guilty if you just can't do/justify it. at 11 he's still had a good innings.

((((hugs))))

just as anside....in horses.....if they get sarcoids you can try marmite to get rid of them. just coat the sarcoid with it every couple of days. i was given this tip years ago and have used it on various horses and it's worked on every one if them. i need to do more research as to why it works, but i know it does. it's saved me a fortune in vet bills and treatment.

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RE: Experienced dog owners, I need your opinion - 4/10/2012 10:31:20 AM

Iamsemisweet

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Thanks for the tip about the marmite, needles. I am sure one of my horses will need that, sooner or later.

Poor Eddy Baby. This is such a hard decision. I don't have a lot of training or anything on him, he had a horrible temperament when he was young, he was afraid of everything. We never did agility, or herding, or any of the fun stuff I do with the other dogs because he was such a flake. Still, he has been loyal and sweet and was a good farm dog. He has been expensive, for a mutt that I got for free. Besides the incident where his skull got caved in, he also has gotten salmon poisoning and insisted on tangling with porcupines whenever one wandered by. He never learned.

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RE: Experienced dog owners, I need your opinion - 4/10/2012 11:16:53 AM

DomMeinCT

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

It would certainly be tempting not to spend the money on him. He got kicked by a horse a few years ago, and I spent 2K putting his stupid little skull back together. I think I would feel wrong not doing something to save him, though.

You've already invested 2K in him.

My 2 cents is that if you can afford it (and you said you'd budget that much on the dog) and if the vet felt the surgery could give him a good quality of life for a while, I'd do it.

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RE: Experienced dog owners, I need your opinion - 4/10/2012 11:30:02 AM

Toppingfrmbottom

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When ginger was diagnosed with malignant lymphosarcoma, we chose to put her on prednisone, to hopefully slowgrowth. Then we managed her needs till she was clearly ready to go, then we took her to the vet. She lasted 7weeks after diagnosis. SHE was 10. I wouldn't do expensive chemo or aggressive treatments that makes them super ill, with lil possible good.

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RE: Experienced dog owners, I need your opinion - 4/10/2012 11:48:52 AM

needlesandpins

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

Thanks for the tip about the marmite, needles. I am sure one of my horses will need that, sooner or later.

Poor Eddy Baby. This is such a hard decision. I don't have a lot of training or anything on him, he had a horrible temperament when he was young, he was afraid of everything. We never did agility, or herding, or any of the fun stuff I do with the other dogs because he was such a flake. Still, he has been loyal and sweet and was a good farm dog. He has been expensive, for a mutt that I got for free. Besides the incident where his skull got caved in, he also has gotten salmon poisoning and insisted on tangling with porcupines whenever one wandered by. He never learned.

it really does sound like he's had a good life in a home that has done the best by him. i don't think alot people would have given him what you have so far. i'm sure he's very greatful for what you have already done for him and it's not hard on him to go to sleep if that is what you decide on. in fact you know it will be easy on him, and maybe better than what he could go through, it will be hard on you though. it's always hard on the ones they leave behind and no matter what we do i think we always question whether it's the right thing. that's the crappy thing about them not being able to just talk to us and tell us what to do.

you have my sympathy though, and a good rub for Eddy.

needles

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RE: Experienced dog owners, I need your opinion - 4/10/2012 12:20:41 PM

TNDommeK

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I think if you can afford it, spend the money. I will tell you this, if you haven't been through it already, putting a dog down, is one of the hardest things I have ever done in My life. It was just two years ago that I had to do that. So it's a bit difficult for Me to even be reading and typing this. But I just have to tell you, spend the money. That's just an opinion. Also, I would get a second opinion on the vet, if I read correctly you said she is fresh out of school..so I would seek a second opinion.

(((great big hugs for you)))

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RE: Experienced dog owners, I need your opinion - 4/10/2012 1:59:23 PM

SassyBird

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The dog is probably accident prone because he's battling something very painful happening to him.

I had a terrier/collie mix which also had cancer on her face. She never let it show and by the time she stopped eating the cancer had spread to the jaw bone and she was in pain whether she showed it to me or not.
I decided to put her down. She'd already suffered enough, and going through various chemo treatments or surgery would have been for my benefit, not hers. I can admit that money also played a part, but I didn't even inquire how much it would cost before I put her down, she'd taken enough punishment for me by hiding her pain to make me feel better.

It doesn't matter what anyone on this thread says. Listen to your gut. If you feel your dog has had enough, let him move forward. If you are not ready to let go, keep hanging on.

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RE: Experienced dog owners, I need your opinion - 4/10/2012 2:08:27 PM

LadyConstanze

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Toppingfrmbottom

When ginger was diagnosed with malignant lymphosarcoma, we chose to put her on prednisone, to hopefully slowgrowth. Then we managed her needs till she was clearly ready to go, then we took her to the vet. She lasted 7weeks after diagnosis. SHE was 10. I wouldn't do expensive chemo or aggressive treatments that makes them super ill, with lil possible good.

I'm seeing first hand the effect prednisone has on a human, I would honestly be worried to have an animal treated with it, as human you do can rationalize things to a certain degree, like "this medication is giving me mood swings, making my skin itch, making me angry, changing my appetite" and I can still see that despite the knowledge of that it scares my friend, now if a dog gets aggressive all of a sudden, you possibly wonder why, the dog might be even more confused. I really love my pets, but as painful as it is, when they suffer it's time to let them go. If their health can be restored and they will get quality of life back, yes, I'll do it and they get all the treatment I can afford, if it's just keeping them alive, it's not fair to them.

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RE: Experienced dog owners, I need your opinion - 4/13/2012 5:05:51 PM

Toppingfrmbottom

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I meant to come back and reply, but forgot sorry.

It didn't have any behavior changes for her, she was completely well mostly happy for the 7 weeks we had her on prednisone, had spunk, enjoyed us, enjoyed eating, up until she wasn't / didn't , and then we made the appointment cried our eyes out, and my parents and i took her to the vet and it was over quickly. The moment she stopped having a quality of life and we could tell she was ready, we took her. I will always do so for any pets that are mine to make that choice for.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

I'm seeing first hand the effect prednisone has on a human, I would honestly be worried to have an animal treated with it, as human you do can rationalize things to a certain degree, like "this medication is giving me mood swings, making my skin itch, making me angry, changing my appetite" and I can still see that despite the knowledge of that it scares my friend, now if a dog gets aggressive all of a sudden, you possibly wonder why, the dog might be even more confused. I really love my pets, but as painful as it is, when they suffer it's time to let them go. If their health can be restored and they will get quality of life back, yes, I'll do it and they get all the treatment I can afford, if it's just keeping them alive, it's not fair to them.

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RE: Experienced dog owners, I need your opinion - 4/13/2012 8:02:44 PM

Aynne88

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

One thing I have to constantly remind myself when it comes to my furry babies.

It's isn't the length of the life, but the quality. If I have a dog that has always enjoyed a very active life and they develop a medical condition that limits their ability to do what they love, then what is the quality left? Even if they are young, there would be no pain, they would still not be able to live the life they enjoy.

Death is not a bad thing. Being able to provide a painless death to a loved pet is one of the greatest luxuries I can imagine.

I think we create too much guilt for ourselves in this regard. We put our weird death hang ups into it. It's that whole "OMG I am KILLING my baby!" And we make the death out as the worst option. When in fact, the reality is that keeping them alive is often the very worst. Yet we use our selfishness, our hangups, and justify the very thing that is the most miserable for the animal.

Keeping an animal alive for as long as possible is not a moral gold star. Just as providing a painless death to a young animal is not a black mark.

This exactly. My lab AJ jumped into the back of my pickup after swimming and slipped on the tailgate, he was young and healthy. He tore himself apart, it cost over 2 grand to fix him with 2 surgeries because the first one he chewed his cone off and chewed out his staples.. I worked doubles at the bar to pay for it. Fast forward years later, he jumps up and breaks his leg, I take him to the vet, the leg snapped due to bone cancer. He was almost 14. I put him down that day. They were talking chemo and amputation. Not on a 14 year old dog that I loved way too much to subject that too and the cost was enormous. I held him on the floor and they let him go painlessly and quickly. I never once thought I made the wrong decision. I am glad though that I spent the 2 or 3 grand to keep him for years when he was young. I haven't been able to get another lab since though. He was my heart dog. I wish you peace in your decision.

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RE: Experienced dog owners, I need your opinion - 4/13/2012 8:15:06 PM

Iamsemisweet

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That's how I feel about Eddy, Aynne, in terms of treatment. He isn't my favorite dog, but he has been a good and faithful companion. Four and a half years ago, he got his head caved in. I spent a couple grand getting him fixed. This happened right after my husband and I split up, and I just couldn't stand losing Eddy too, at that time. He is now over 11. I have decided not to do the surgery. I will pamper him until he seems uncomfortable, and then I will put him down. He is a fearful and emotional dog, who can't stand to be confined. I just don't see the point of aggressive treatment. The sad thing is, I have another dog who is nearly 14, so he won't be with me much longer. It will break my heart when he goes, I adore that dog. Losing them both at the same time will be unbearable.

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