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Petition: Require States to Reform Zoning Codes to Allo... - 4/9/2012 5:51:57 AM   
kalikshama


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The 1000+ sq foot zoning requirements currently in place in most states, were initiated by lenders/municipalities, in an attempt to force Americans to build bigger homes, thus incurring larger debt (so lenders could make more$) and municipalities could charge higher taxes.This practice limits the ability of Americans to achieve the "American Dream" of home ownership in a structure size that suits their needs.There is a growing trend to build smaller homes but it is difficult because of these restrictions. Laws requiring homes to be 1000+ sq feet are unconstitutional and should be abolished. States should be required to remove these laws so that more families can live within their financial means, in a structure that suits their needs, and supports their environmentally held beliefs.

Sign the petition: https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/require-states-reform-zoning-codes-allow-tiny-home-structures-under-1000-square-feet/jfBNfR3l



More info on tiny homes: http://www.tumbleweedhouses.com/
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RE: Petition: Require States to Reform Zoning Codes to ... - 4/9/2012 6:32:49 AM   
tj444


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I can see other reasons for minimum size, keeping the whole development more uniform, keeping property values high, a larger house allows you to rent out one or more rooms also which contradicts the unaffordability angle of a larger house (imo)..

Its not necessarily only the lenders that have restrictions, any development or HOA can also.. right down to the colors allowed for your house exterior.. I own a building lot in WA state.. the minimum size allowable by the HOA is 600 sq ft.. no mobiles allowed in certain areas of the development, etc.. I would not want a mobile right next to my custom built house.. and a house that is very small would not fit in all that well.. although in that development there are not many huge homes anyway..

I see a tumbleweed home as just a different style/type of RV.. it looks cute and all but how many people could actually live in it without getting claustrophobic?.. no room to dance in one of those.. oh.. and no dungeon either..

Imo, allowing people to subdivide their big houses into suites is a much better solution.. Its hard to find a city that allows one small suite and those that do tack on a substantial fee to your yearly property taxes.. plus the suite has to be up to code.. So at some point it becomes uneconomical.. I like multi-purpose flex homes that are designed to change inside depending on the lifestyle of the occupants..

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RE: Petition: Require States to Reform Zoning Codes to ... - 4/9/2012 6:54:40 AM   
kalikshama


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Couples do live in these tiny houses but I personally wouldn't want to share one.

At one point, I was thinking of getting one to park at my Mom's. She has 4 acres.

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RE: Petition: Require States to Reform Zoning Codes to ... - 4/9/2012 6:57:03 AM   
Owner59


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Here`s a better and more plausible example of cheap but good housing.

http://www.yurts.com/what/default.aspx








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RE: Petition: Require States to Reform Zoning Codes to ... - 4/9/2012 7:13:32 AM   
kalikshama


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Nice!

They're not positioning it as year-round permanent living though.

http://www.yurts.com/how/personal-use.aspx

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RE: Petition: Require States to Reform Zoning Codes to ... - 4/9/2012 7:21:57 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama
Couples do live in these tiny houses but I personally wouldn't want to share one.

At one point, I was thinking of getting one to park at my Mom's. She has 4 acres.

sure, I have thought about building one and I also have a 25 ft RV too but it seriously craps one's lifestyle.. Try to find a rv park with services to connect to.. they are bloody expensive.. you might as well rent a studio suite somewhere for what you pay.. And I dont find tumbleweed homes to be all that cheap either to buy..

In many/most areas, there are zoning regs that dont allow people to do that.. even in the sticks in the desert in CA the counties can get quite militant about living in Rvs, buildings, etc that arent approved (by them).. the last thing ya want is a swat team desceding on you.. I expect on an acreage you might get away with it, for a while at least... but its not what i would call a way to live permanently or even for a long time..

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RE: Petition: Require States to Reform Zoning Codes to ... - 4/9/2012 7:23:52 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama
Nice!

They're not positioning it as year-round permanent living though.

http://www.yurts.com/how/personal-use.aspx

When I think of yurts.. the 3 little pigs and big bad wolf come to mind..

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RE: Petition: Require States to Reform Zoning Codes to ... - 4/9/2012 7:31:45 AM   
OsideGirl


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Oddly enough, that's one law CA doesn't have. We were looking at using one of the Katrina House plans to build a cabin up at Big Bear.

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RE: Petition: Require States to Reform Zoning Codes to ... - 4/9/2012 7:34:06 AM   
mnottertail


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When I think of yurts.. the 3 little pigs and big bad wolf come to mind..


So you see them as chinese pot bellied pigs?

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RE: Petition: Require States to Reform Zoning Codes to ... - 4/9/2012 7:35:14 AM   
Hillwilliam


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I've seen subdivision restrictions requiring home size over 1000 SF but never zoning regs (I never looked at coral Gables that closely when I sold things down there)
I just checked the MLS of a neighboring town and there are 40 homes available under 1000 SF and in mine, there are 20.

Heck, we have a local builder that specializes in 1000SF 2/2 homes.

Do the authors of your article specify which states require homes to be over 1000 SF because Ive never heard of one.

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RE: Petition: Require States to Reform Zoning Codes to ... - 4/9/2012 7:35:34 AM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

Nice!

They're not positioning it as year-round permanent living though.

http://www.yurts.com/how/personal-use.aspx

Agreed.

But there are parts of America where this can be and is year round permanent(a relative term)living.

I saw a vid on PBS years ago about a woman who had 45 thousand bucks and wanted a comfortable,private home with all the amenities for less than 45 grand.

She choose a yurt,a big one with a decent foundation that she used for storage and a guest room.It had indoor plumbing,heat,laundry and electricity.

With the 45 thousand,he bought a patch of desert out of town and had her yurt built,installed all the sight features like a pond,paved driveway,plants and trees.

It really was in the end, a very nice pleasent place.



She had everything and loved living there.The best part was no mortgage.


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RE: Petition: Require States to Reform Zoning Codes to ... - 4/9/2012 7:53:50 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
But there are parts of America where this can be and is year round permanent(a relative term)living.

was that with or without a building permit?

http://www.californiafirefighter.com/archive/index.php/t-6234.html

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RE: Petition: Require States to Reform Zoning Codes to ... - 4/9/2012 7:57:29 AM   
xssve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

I can see other reasons for minimum size, keeping the whole development more uniform, keeping property values high, a larger house allows you to rent out one or more rooms also which contradicts the unaffordability angle of a larger house (imo)..

Its not necessarily only the lenders that have restrictions, any development or HOA can also.. right down to the colors allowed for your house exterior.. I own a building lot in WA state.. the minimum size allowable by the HOA is 600 sq ft.. no mobiles allowed in certain areas of the development, etc.. I would not want a mobile right next to my custom built house.. and a house that is very small would not fit in all that well.. although in that development there are not many huge homes anyway..

I see a tumbleweed home as just a different style/type of RV.. it looks cute and all but how many people could actually live in it without getting claustrophobic?.. no room to dance in one of those.. oh.. and no dungeon either..

Imo, allowing people to subdivide their big houses into suites is a much better solution.. Its hard to find a city that allows one small suite and those that do tack on a substantial fee to your yearly property taxes.. plus the suite has to be up to code.. So at some point it becomes uneconomical.. I like multi-purpose flex homes that are designed to change inside depending on the lifestyle of the occupants..

A lot of cities have passed covenants restricting people from renting out rooms/subdividing houses, which was a common practice before homes became reclassified from "dwellings" to "investments", and of course, the reason subdivision into rooming house type arrangements is prohibited is because the neighbors are worried about property values.

When a neighborhood shifts from residential to rental, there is a potential for rises in crime rates, turnover increases, traffic and parking becomes an issue, all of which tend to cause the surrounding property values to decline - want a cheap house? Look for a higher crime area or a rental zone.

On the flip side, prohibiting this cause big problems as neighborhoods are gentrified, whether by covenant crazy class migration, semi-nomadic yuppie house flippers, or speculators, who tend to drive housing prices up which is good from an investment standpoint, but crowds out service workers, your clerks and cashiers, waters and waitresses, Barristas, maintenance workers, etc., and including critical service workers: police, firemen, teachers, healthcare workers, etc., who are forced out into lower rent districts further from their jobs, and are now forced into long commutes from service ghettos (trailers parks outside city limits, declining neighborhoods, etc.) on marginal incomes.

It's a big problem in a lot of cites, and in some the answer has been to require developers to include a certain percentage of low income housing in any development, whether a housing development or an apartment building.

David Smith over at AHI has a number of blogs on the subject, here's one about another trend, co-housing, which is sort of a communal arrangement.

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RE: Petition: Require States to Reform Zoning Codes to ... - 4/9/2012 8:09:49 AM   
tj444


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Co-housing has been around for a long time.. imo, the problem with that is getting financing can be harder to get..

Sure, some places do try to restrict room rentals but any place i have lived it has not been a problem for a room or two to be rented.. how is anyone to say if i am a tenant renting a room or a relative that has moved in? I have read about legal challenges making those types of restrictions illegal.. Soooo, pretty hard to enforce in reality, imo..

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RE: Petition: Require States to Reform Zoning Codes to ... - 4/9/2012 8:29:44 AM   
outhere69


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I know that some communities don't allow a true in-law unit with a separate entrance. If you add something like that to a house, it's then considered "multi-family" and violates a zoning ordinance.

I've also seen a lot of covenants for property with the minimum 1000-1500 sq ft requirement, on property sold by Countrytyme.

I could live in a Katrina house of 500 sq ft, easy peasy.

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RE: Petition: Require States to Reform Zoning Codes to ... - 4/9/2012 8:34:20 AM   
Hillwilliam


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We may have a confusion here between HOA covenants/deed restrictions and zoning laws.

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RE: Petition: Require States to Reform Zoning Codes to ... - 4/9/2012 9:30:10 AM   
kalikshama


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Judging from the comments, this appears to be a local issue, not federal, so I withdraw my OP. But aren't the tiny houses CUTE?!?

http://tinyhouseblog.com/announcement/white-house-petition-requring-states-to-reform-zoning-laws-to-allow-tiny-home-structures/






< Message edited by kalikshama -- 4/9/2012 9:32:22 AM >

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RE: Petition: Require States to Reform Zoning Codes to ... - 4/9/2012 9:42:40 AM   
xssve


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Well they accomplish pretty much the same thing, they restrict what you can do with your private property, and whether it emerges as a zoning restriction (single vs. multifamily), or a covenant (subletting, with or w/out separate entrance), the outcome is the same: you can't do it without a legal battle, and in some cases, it depends on how much political power the covenanting homeowners wield: if it's a lot, they can get zoning ordinances passed, if less, covenants, which may then be challenged through ordinance changes.

One good example is covenant restriction on outdoor laundry lines: as energy prices went up in the early naughts, a lot of people began erecting or using existing outdoor clotheslines, and HOA's went nuts, passing covenants to prevent this once ubiquitous sight of sheets and dainties flapping gently in the summer breeze from driving their property values down by making the place look a little too genteel.

Homeowners who wanted to conserve energy made and equal and opposite squack, and in many places, ordinances either permitting or prohibiting this practice went into effect, depending on who had the most pull with the city council.

In every case, the motive to maximize property values is in conflict with a need to innovate for practical reasons, and it's a microcosm of the economy as a whole, where profit margins are often in conflict with issues as fundamental as employment levels high enough to sustain a consumption based market economy.

It's really a conflict between profits and practicality, and the table is invariably slightly tilted towards the profit side (money talks, and when money talks, people listen) - an economic ecosystem however, is comprised of people as well as a investments, and a healthy economic foundation is based on a healthy labor market.

It's just one of those things that requires more or less constant attention: financialism tends to crowd people out over time, for a number of reasons, in a purely financial system, people are just variable costs, and financial systems tend to migrate away form production in the brick and mortar economy, where people live and work, and towards more abstract, speculative markets, where a degradation of the brick and mortar economy can actually translate into higher margins, stock prices, etc.

"Creative destruction" they call it, but as a theoretically sustainable thing if the creation and profit is all in more and more abstract financial schemes and the social fabric bears the costs destruction of jobs, affordable housing, and basic services, then the result is invariably a Dickensian class dystopia, large scale ghettoization and accordant externalities: increases in crime rates, decline in nutrition and educational attainment, etc., that create long term problems that eventually can only be solved through taxation and restoring a more balanced economic foundation.

i.e., when I say "long term", it's usually not years, it's decades, generations, i.e., the African American community for example, for example, which has endured over 200 years of deliberate economic and social discrimination and destabilization, which created most of the problems cited by some as just reason to continue that destabilization policy, and oppose efforts to end it, i.e., Affirmative Action etc., which has managed to undo the damage (if not completely) in one or Two generations that took Six or Eight generations to institutionalize, just by taking the foot off their necks, and creating a little room for opportunity.

It's all about self interest, and in the long term, a stable, educated, flexible and reasonably mobile workforce is foundational to a healthy economy but market forces, particularly unregulated market forces, tend to work at complete odds with that goal, and housing is definitely a critical factor in that: as a purely practical matter, one needs a place to take a shower, change clothes, and eat simply to remain marginally employable at anything.

Throw in kids, and stable, affordable housing becomes a critical issue.

< Message edited by xssve -- 4/9/2012 9:44:28 AM >


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RE: Petition: Require States to Reform Zoning Codes to ... - 4/9/2012 10:12:50 AM   
xssve


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Re: the clothesline problem, it gets even more complicated when larger financial institutions and stockholders get involved, i.e., clotheslines represent a potential loss of revenue to energy producers, traders and stockholders, who may then hypothetically throw their lobbying weight behind the HOA's - so now, whether or not you can dry your clothes on a line in your backyard or not is a decision being made by stockholders halfway across the country.

Very similar to in principle to the square footage requirements being discussed.

The basic principle here, I believe, in a nutshell, is that the market forces generated by short term financial interests of a heavily capitalized few, tends to be inimical to the long term sustainable economic interests of everybody, and there is an economic necessity to address thhat imbalance which left unchecked, essentially results in economic feudalism.

The economy was made for man, not man for the economy, and that isn't just mystical bullshit, it's sound economics: economics is people working to create exchangeable value and then turning around and consuming it: eating, drinking, sleeping, having children, choosing what to wear, entertaining themselves, etc., etc.

Wealth doesn't fall out of the sky, we grow it, dig it up, design it, build it, maintain it, etc., we create it, whereas financialism is about skimming off the surplus, first and foremost - the validity and utility of financial markets lies in just exactly where that cream ends up: in reinforcing and stabilizing the labor market from whence value is created, through capital investment, value added refinements including conservation and efficiency, and innovation of new classes of value goods (from clay tablets to paper and pen to typewriters to computers, to cell phones) or destabilizing it for personal gain and ostentatious display.

Historically, economies that allowed the latter to prevail, have proved unstable and short lived, but for some reason - I'm proposing the market reasons I've sketched out - it keeps happening over and over again in spite of that.

It's not "evil", it's ego.

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RE: Petition: Require States to Reform Zoning Codes to ... - 4/9/2012 10:18:19 AM   
xssve


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If you need a better example than clotheslines, try the nullification of state predatory lending laws at the federal level by Bushes comptroller of he currency, the architects of which were the investment banks who complained that navigating the Byzantine maze of state and local law was costing them too much money in paperwork.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/23/opinion/23fri4.html

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