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Is life a "Zero-sum" game - 2/28/2012 7:40:23 AM   
Fightdirecto


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Status: offline 		A local talk radio show in the Greater Boston area had a guest who expressed the following difference between Conservatives and the rest of the political spectrum (liberals, moderates, libertarians, etc.), based on polls, surveys and psychological studies. One of his conclusions:

quote:

Conservatives (unlike liberals, moderates and libertarians) see all aspects of life as a "zero-sum game" in which for anyone to get or receive something, someone else has to have something taken away or lose something.


Example 1: If a Black or Hispanic or Asian American citizen can vote, somehow that means that a Caucasian American citizen has to lose some of his or her "rightful" political power and political control.

Example 2: When President Obama appointed Justice Sotomayor, an Hispanic woman, to the SCOTUS, it means that some Male Caucasian American citizen lost his "right" to be a Supreme Court Justice (even if that Male Caucasian American citizen wasn't even a judge or a lawyer).

Example 3: If a Black or Hispanic or Asian American citizen gets accepted to a public university (i.e. University of Colorado, Ohio State, etc.) somehow that means that a Caucasian American citizen has to lose his or her "rightful" place in that university's freshman class, even if the Black or Hispanic or Asian American citizen had better grades and a higher score of the SAT test.

Example 4: If an American CEO gets paid an annual salary of $1 million dollars, that means that 1 million other people must take a pay cut of at least $1.00 to "balance the books".

A valid argument or not?

My opinion is best described by this graphic:




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Fightdirecto -- 2/28/2012 8:22:53 AM >

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RE: Is life a "Zero-sum" game - 2/28/2012 7:55:43 AM   
Owner59


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Status: offline 		Many cons suffer from a myth that lots of lucky people are getting free stuff and they are paying for it through their taxes.It`s practically a party platform.

The world and life is infinitely more complicated that that but when you`re just one cog on a 300 million cog wheel,it`s hard to see that.

So when some con makes up a straw-man............ that drives their new Caddy down to get their welfare welfare checks/food-stamps/mad-money.....the con promises the poor working cog that "if elected,he`ll fight to stop the abuse"(read: exploit the myth).


< Message edited by Owner59 -- 2/28/2012 8:01:09 AM >

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RE: Is life a "Zero-sum" game - 2/28/2012 7:57:34 AM   
Marc2b


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Status: offline 		I don't know who made up those examples but they are utter nonsense and the first three have nothing to do with what the phrase "zero-sum game" even means. "Zero-sum game" has nothing to do with rights (since when does anyone have a right to be a Supreme court Justice?) but refers to economics. It is the false belief that if everyone needs X amount to survive then if anyone has more than X they do so at the expense of someone else who will be left with less than X. It is a false belief because wealth is not limited but can be created (eg new resources extracted from the earth)... The pie (so to speak) can get bigger. Unfortunately, much of our current economic woes stem from the fact that we have been spending pieces of the bigger pie before it has been baked.

< Message edited by Marc2b -- 2/28/2012 7:59:38 AM >

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RE: Is life a "Zero-sum" game - 2/28/2012 8:05:46 AM   
DarkSteven


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Status: offline 		I disagree with that statement. Let me preface this by stating that I am interpreting "conservative" as "fiscal conservative".

One of the diehard assumptions in conservative thought (and one I disagree with) is that money that the wealthy (called "job creators") have is more valuable than money that the government or the poor have. This is reflected in such things as tax cuts that favor the wealthy disproportionately and the capital gains tax rate being less than that for earned income.

I suspect that the guest's point was that liberals believe that money given from the government is "free" and never needs to be paid back. If so, he's describing what fiscal conservatives used to be, before Reagan decided that deficits don't matter and the GOP believed that tax cuts will produce more taxes.

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RE: Is life a "Zero-sum" game - 2/28/2012 8:21:39 AM   
Fightdirecto


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

I don't know who made up those examples but they are utter nonsense and the first three have nothing to do with what the phrase "zero-sum game" even means. "Zero-sum game" has nothing to do with rights (since when does anyone have a right to be a Supreme court Justice?) but refers to economics. It is the false belief that if everyone needs X amount to survive then if anyone has more than X they do so at the expense of someone else who will be left with less than X. It is a false belief because wealth is not limited but can be created (eg new resources extracted from the earth)... The pie (so to speak) can get bigger. Unfortunately, much of our current economic woes stem from the fact that we have been spending pieces of the bigger pie before it has been baked.

Not being a math guy, but a history and sociology student, my understanding of "zero-sum" thinking is this:

Everything is finite - dollars, jobs, political power, etc. Nothing can expand past a certain fixed limit and once you reach that limit, no one can get anything they didn't already have without first taking it away from someone else.

Let's look at Example 3 in my OP and how some conservatives perceive it:

There is a finite number of seats in a public university, and if a non-Caucasian male gets one of that finite number of seats, that means a Caucasian male has to give up the seat that he is entitled to since birth, based on his racial group and his gender (the frequent argument against Affirmitive Action enrollment policies at public universities).


_____________________________

"I swore never to be silent whenever and wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.””
- Ellie Wiesel

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RE: Is life a "Zero-sum" game - 2/28/2012 8:29:33 AM   
SternSkipper


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quote:


So when some con makes up a straw-man............ that drives their new Caddy down to get their welfare welfare checks/food-stamps/mad-money.


HEY YOU LEAVE BILL O'REILLY OUT OF THIS....
He can't help it if his ratings are down and he needs a little assistance.

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RE: Is life a "Zero-sum" game - 2/28/2012 8:31:49 AM   
Owner59


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Status: offline 		I have heard cons from the "Heritage Foundation" and others describe the billions of dollars spent on welfare (over the last 60 years), on the safety net and anti-poverty programs as "wasted"money.

Why?...................Because we still have poverty......

How can you reason with someone like that,who`s already been taken by the body snatchers?

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RE: Is life a "Zero-sum" game - 2/28/2012 8:46:41 AM   
SoftBonds


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Status: offline 		It is not a "zero-sum" game. In a zero-sum game (LOL, I'm actually studying them at college right now), anything one person gains is gained by taking from another. Certainly there are elements that are zero-sum, the labor hours of a particular skilled worker (a CEO or high class prostitute for instance) that could not be replaced by another. However, many things that would seem limited are in fact only partially limited. For example, Oil. If the price of oil goes up, more oil is discovered or becomes economical to extract, and the amount of oil increases (effectively, it isn't being created, only extracted, but...).
The other issue is that in game theory you often look at 2 person zero sum games, but in the real world, there is always another person/party/etc you could team up to screw over. When Bin Ladin had trouble overthrowing the Saudi Government, he went after the US...
A really interesting "game," in the US, especially right now, is "job creation." The supply of jobs is based on the amount of work that is needed, which is based on demand for goods and services, with some government interference creating inefficiencies (INTENTIONALLY) to create extra jobs.
However, productivity has been increasing exponentially since the start of the industrial age. This means the goods and services available have also been increasing exponentially, even at a per-capita rate. We have had to consume ever more goods to keep people employed.
Recently, a group of people realized that they could "prime the pump," of spending by encouraging people to spend now with money they would earn in the future, credit cards. In the short run, this led to a wonderful boom time as desire for goods and services increased without an increase in labor available (well, other than labor in China...oops). In the long term, it led to the people who spent on credit having less to spend, as large portions of their pay were diverted from current spending to making payments of principle and interest (mostly interest) on their past purchases.
At the same time, the folks who were receiving these payments, wisely did not invest in new productive capacity (of goods the indebted would not have been able to afford anyway), but instead looked for other investments. Commodities, divivatives, etc.
All perfectly logical, but it means we now have a sump pulling money out of the system of "buying stuff we produce," which means that you can expect unemployment to be high for a while, until the debts are paid down and the rich get out of the gambling business.
Or, to put is shortly, We're screwed...
edit:clarity (yes, it was even more confusing and long winded before)

< Message edited by SoftBonds -- 2/28/2012 8:48:56 AM >

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RE: Is life a "Zero-sum" game - 2/28/2012 8:53:01 AM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Not being a math guy, but a history and sociology student, my understanding of "zero-sum" thinking is this:

Everything is finite - dollars, jobs, political power, etc. Nothing can expand past a certain fixed limit and once you reach that limit, no one can get anything they didn't already have without first taking it away from someone else.

Let's look at Example 3 in my OP and how some conservatives perceive it:

There is a finite number of seats in a public university, and if a non-Caucasian male gets one of that finite number of seats, that means a Caucasian male has to give up the seat that he is entitled to since birth, based on his racial group and his gender (the frequent argument against Affirmitive Action enrollment policies at public universities).


Ultimately everything is finite since the universe itself is finite but in practical terms wealth is not one of them. We get a fresh infusion of wealth from the sun every day. That sunlight becomes grass which becomes milk which becomes cheese which becomes the pizza you have for lunch (ultimately, everything on the earth, you and me included, is merely altered sunlight). Yes, the sun will eventually go out on us, but that's not for another five billion years so we don't need to get too huffed about it now. The term "zero-sum game" can be applied to the number of slots in a university but I've never really heard it used outside of the economic context before.

I think you are misrepresenting the argument in example number three however (although I don't doubt that there are those who do believe being a white male entitles you to such things and just know better than to speak it out loud). The argument against affirmative action is that racial preferment may bump out someone who was more academically qualified than the person who gets the slot. That is racial discrimination. Telling someone that they qualify to attend the university but can't because of their skin color (regardless what skin color they are) is wrong.

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RE: Is life a "Zero-sum" game - 2/28/2012 8:56:07 AM   
Owner59


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Status: offline 		Technically,many "transactions" are zero sum,be they intellectual,material or spiritual.

BUT........there are many exchanges that add value and don`t add debt(intellectual,material or spiritual).

It happens everyday in every society on the planet.Our labor,learned insights and new ideas are always changing UP "the game",and growing our wealth(intellectual,material and spiritual).




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RE: Is life a "Zero-sum" game - 2/28/2012 9:19:20 AM   
SoftBonds


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Status: offline 		A note, while the number of slots at a given university in a given year may be finite, if enough people apply, either the university will invest in expansion, allowing more slots in the future, or other universities will seek to attain the same quality, effectively creating equal value slots.
So minorities who "displace," white male college students are not necessarily preventing those white males from getting a good education.
Also, the quality of education often improves. Slots given to minorities, especially when based upon economic rather than just racial profiles, enrich the learning enviornment by providing exposure to other types of thought.
Contrast this with the far greater number of slots given to "legacies," which are generally white folks who didn't academically qualify, but whose folks went to the college...
edit: Good example of a legacy, Bush Jr.

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RE: Is life a "Zero-sum" game - 2/28/2012 9:43:25 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

I don't know who made up those examples but they are utter nonsense and the first three have nothing to do with what the phrase "zero-sum game" even means... It is the false belief that if everyone needs X amount to survive then if anyone has more than X they do so at the expense of someone else who will be left with less than X.

Bingo.
    The maldistribution of income in America has gone up way too much, the wealthy are getting way, way too wealthy, and the middle income class is left behind.

    ~Max zero-sum Baucus (D - Montana)
K.

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RE: Is life a "Zero-sum" game - 2/28/2012 10:17:03 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

I suspect that the guest's point was that liberals believe that money given from the government is "free" and never needs to be paid back.


gee and I thought his point was to paint conservatives as a bunch of uncaring racists. I wonder where the people of color who also happen to be conservative fit into his scenarios or maybe he doesn't think there are any.

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RE: Is life a "Zero-sum" game - 2/28/2012 1:16:08 PM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

I suspect that the guest's point was that liberals believe that money given from the government is "free" and never needs to be paid back.


gee and I thought his point was to paint conservatives as a bunch of uncaring racists. I wonder where the people of color who also happen to be conservative fit into his scenarios or maybe he doesn't think there are any.

No need to "paint" when one only needs to read the news papers.

There are plenty of non-white conservatives.....African Americans especially who don`t want gay marriage and who`re conservative on other social issues......but because of history ......... and you know....... THE NEWS..........most blacks tend to vote for democrats.



Sooooo unfair.....

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 2/28/2012 1:17:35 PM >

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RE: Is life a "Zero-sum" game - 2/28/2012 3:45:58 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

How can you reason with someone like that,who`s already been taken by the body snatchers?


You can't ... you just remain helpful and always direct them towards that vacant elevator shaft.
Let God sort it out.

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RE: Is life a "Zero-sum" game - 2/28/2012 3:50:04 PM   
SoftBonds


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

I suspect that the guest's point was that liberals believe that money given from the government is "free" and never needs to be paid back.


gee and I thought his point was to paint conservatives as a bunch of uncaring racists. I wonder where the people of color who also happen to be conservative fit into his scenarios or maybe he doesn't think there are any.


BTW Boi, what is your opinion of the lawsuit alleging Obama can't be president because he is black?

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RE: Is life a "Zero-sum" game - 2/28/2012 3:52:35 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

Sooooo unfair.....


Your point will never be heard when you respond to those with the thinnest veneer of political understanding (in terms of being based on any kind of reality).
It's very similar to dealing with a garden variety barnacle.


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RE: Is life a "Zero-sum" game - 2/28/2012 4:15:06 PM   
thishereboi


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quote:

No need to "paint" when one only needs to read the news papers.


Wow. I made a crack to my friends racist husband and he responded almost word for word. Of course he is a liberal too. So I shouldn't be too surprised.

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RE: Is life a "Zero-sum" game - 2/28/2012 4:16:21 PM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SoftBonds

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

I suspect that the guest's point was that liberals believe that money given from the government is "free" and never needs to be paid back.


gee and I thought his point was to paint conservatives as a bunch of uncaring racists. I wonder where the people of color who also happen to be conservative fit into his scenarios or maybe he doesn't think there are any.


BTW Boi, what is your opinion of the lawsuit alleging Obama can't be president because he is black?


Not the dumbest thing I have ever heard, but pretty damn close to it.


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RE: Is life a "Zero-sum" game - 2/28/2012 8:51:36 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

A local talk radio show in the Greater Boston area had a guest who expressed the following difference between Conservatives and the rest of the political spectrum (liberals, moderates, libertarians, etc.), based on polls, surveys and psychological studies. One of his conclusions:

quote:

Conservatives (unlike liberals, moderates and libertarians) see all aspects of life as a "zero-sum game" in which for anyone to get or receive something, someone else has to have something taken away or lose something.


Example 1: If a Black or Hispanic or Asian American citizen can vote, somehow that means that a Caucasian American citizen has to lose some of his or her "rightful" political power and political control.

Example 2: When President Obama appointed Justice Sotomayor, an Hispanic woman, to the SCOTUS, it means that some Male Caucasian American citizen lost his "right" to be a Supreme Court Justice (even if that Male Caucasian American citizen wasn't even a judge or a lawyer).

Example 3: If a Black or Hispanic or Asian American citizen gets accepted to a public university (i.e. University of Colorado, Ohio State, etc.) somehow that means that a Caucasian American citizen has to lose his or her "rightful" place in that university's freshman class, even if the Black or Hispanic or Asian American citizen had better grades and a higher score of the SAT test.

Example 4: If an American CEO gets paid an annual salary of $1 million dollars, that means that 1 million other people must take a pay cut of at least $1.00 to "balance the books".

A valid argument or not?

My opinion is best described by this graphic:





Every single question here was inane. Lacking in credibility AND intelligence.

(in reply to Fightdirecto)
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