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Keystone Pipeline Morons - 2/23/2012 11:12:17 AM   
joether


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Why we DONT need the Keystone Pipeline

(Written by Sen. John Hoeven of North Dakota)

quote:


The Keystone XL pipeline represents a big step toward true North American energy independence, reducing our reliance on Middle Eastern oil and increasing our access to energy from our own nation and our closest ally, Canada, along with some oil from Mexico -- to 75% of our daily consumption, compared with 70% now.


Really? A 'big step' changing the daily consumption by 5%? How about we get into solar, wind, and hydro technology? Promote electric cars in the inner city and areas immediately outside of them? No no, we Republicans cant do any of that; that would be be intelligent and wise and honestly, when was the last time we accused ANYONE in the GOP of placing the needs of the country ahead of themselves or the people they are trying to give kick-backs too?

quote:


That decades-long goal for our country is finally within reach, but we need to stay focused on the big picture, and we need to act. This $7 billion, 1,700-mile, high-tech transcontinental pipeline is a big-time, private-sector job creator, and it will also hold down the gas prices for consumers and reduce our energy dependence on an unstable part of the world. Finally, it will do so with good environmental stewardship.


Its taken Republicans decades to figure out how to get a pipeline from Canada to Texas? I guess they are all morons! If the Republicans believe $7 Billion will create 'long term, permanent' jobs, than why ar they against the President's Jobs Bill that would spend $560 Billion? Or the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act that was $878 Billion? They are even against restoring/repairing the nation's critical infrastructure that would cost between $120-180 Billion.

Republicans are to 'good enviromental stewardship' what Iranians are to 'developing nuclear energy to treat the very poor with cancer treatments' in their country. The only people they are fooling as the same morons that elected them to office.

quote:


That's why I, along with 44 of my colleagues from across the nation, introduced new legislation to move the project toward approval and construction after President Barack Obama's rejection of the project last month.


And just who are these 44 individuals? We might assume that are in the US Senate and/or US House of Representatives. But this *IS* a Republican, which might also mean his 'colleagues' are in the oil industry. Funny, he doesnt bother to explain WHY President Obama rejected the project last month. Mr. Obama seems like quite a reasonable man to deal with on matters of national importance.

quote:


That's key to my state, because providing pipeline capacity and gathering systems for that much North Dakota crude will take as many as 500 trucks a day off of roads in the oil patch. That's a win-win for producers, state revenues and most importantly, public safety on our Western highways.


I dont believe we have those trucks on computer automation just yet. So that would stand to reason that there would be at least 500 truck DRIVERS who would lose their jobs over this. Unlike the 1700 temporary jobs created by building this pipeline, that's 500 PERMANENT jobs being lost. Permanent jobs tend to last considerably longer than temporary ones. Not to mention additional jobs that are lost 'down stream' from those truckers loosing their jobs. Of course, this assumes a Republican gives us a factual number on trucker's jobs lost. It was another Republican that once said that Iraq had 'Stockpiles of Weapons of Mass Destruction'. After paying $4 trillion on borrowed money, we learned just how well Republicans can count...

quote:


The Keystone XL project is good for North Dakota, but it is vital for the nation. Some 75% of the pipe for the Keystone XL pipeline will be made here in North America, 50% of it in Arkansas. Some 90% of all other construction materials will come from companies in the United States and Canada.


So only 25% of that $7 Billion will go to the other states besides Arkansas? How much of that money will go to Hawaii? Florida? The New England States? Why arent ALL 100% of construction materials being made in our nation only? So of that $7 Billion, a chunk of it will go to outside entities that dont employ US Workers? So that 1700 workers we have been hearing about, is even LESS, because some of them are not AMERICAN WORKERS! I though Republicans and their conservative lackeys were against Foreign Aid money to other countries?

quote:


If the Keystone XL pipeline isn't built, Canadian oil will still be produced -- 700,000 barrels a day of it -- but instead of coming down to our refineries in the United States, instead of creating jobs for American workers, instead of reducing our dependence on a turbulent part of the world, that oil will be shipped to China.


Ah, the heart of issue at last! This wouldnt be a Republican publication if there wasnt a FEAR CARD being thrown down. Republicans use fear cards like children eat free candy on halloweeen night! That if us Americans do not bow into these Republican's demands, our nation will implode or be over run by Mexicans, or get nuked by ICBMs from Iran! Last I checked, the distance Canadian tankers would have to take to reach US Ports is significantly LESS than a port in China. That implies less overhead and other costs, which creates.....(drum roll).....MORE PROFIT! I would think conservatives that vote for these morons would understand this basic concept....

quote:


Finally, it's important to point out that the Keystone XL pipeline is nothing new. Thousands of pipelines crisscross our nation, delivering refined products to fuel our cars, heat our homes and power our industries. In fact, the original Keystone pipeline, which became operational in 2010, runs from Alberta through my state of North Dakota. Contrary to claims by critics, the pipeline itself has never leaked. The leaks happened at fittings and seals at above-ground pumping stations, which were properly and promptly fixed.


If there are thousands of such pipelines crisscrossing the nation, why are we paying $7 Billion to place....just one more....across the nation? Wouldnt this fall under the heading of 'wasteful spending'? No, of course not, since this benefits Republicans. Anything that benefits Republicans is NEVER wasteful spending, right? Its like 'nation building' in other countries. Its wrong if a Democrat does it, but if a Republican does it, its 'ok'.

quote:


I have worked toward approval of the Keystone XL pipeline, first as governor of North Dakota and now as a U.S. senator, because I believe it helps our nation on so many levels. It is just the kind of project that will grow our economy and create jobs in the right way -- through private-sector investment.

The Keystone XL pipeline will also help to wean us from our dependency on oil from volatile regions of the world and help us move toward a true energy independent future. It will make our nation safer and stronger for the American people.
[/quote[

I wonder where he got his money for re-election all these years? And yes, this pipeline, like the 'many thousands of pipelines that crisscross our nation' will NOT lessen our dependency on foreign oil. Where is this oil that this pipeline would be created coming from? A FOREIGN NATION. Yes, its Canada. But under the typical defination of conservatives; "Any nation OUTSIDE of America is considered a foreign nation".

I think spending $7 Billion to build solar and wind farms, hydoelectric plants would be a much better investment in our country's future energy needs, than giving our money to another country while keeping our heads buried up our asses with the delusional thinking that 'we'll find that one mega deposit of oil in our country next year....'
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RE: Keystone Pipeline Morons - 2/23/2012 11:43:15 AM   
SoftBonds


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I have to disagree.
I have been told in the past that I am not an environmentalist, I'm a humanist. I tend to try to protect the environment to protect the place we live, and to provide a better life for humans, not because of the poor animals...
I also try to look at issues from a "what is the alternative," standpoint, instead of from a "do I support," standpoint.
So, assume the US does not allow this pipeline, will the oil sands be converted into Oil? Yes.
Will a pipeline be built? Of course.
Where will the pipeline go if not through the US? To British Columbia and the Ocean.
Now certainly running a longer pipeline through more difficult terrain will create more jobs, but it will also increase the risk of spills. Also, much of the area the alternative pipeline would run through is extremely rural or wild. Spills would be difficult to locate and fix. So by opposing the US pipeline you support a pipeline more likely to cause oil spills, on what is more likely to be pristine wilderness.
OK, well, you doubted the oil would leave North America even then, lets talk about refineries. There are West Coast refineries and East Coast/Gulf refineries. Guess which set is larger and has more open capacity? Guess which set imports more oil from the middle east?
So the question becomes, is it cheaper to put oil in British Columbia on a tanker to China or to put it on a tanker and ship it either through the Panama canal or around the tip of South America to reach the Gulf of Mexico? I'm guessing the Canadian oil goes to China and we continue to ship oil from Saudi Arabia to Texas...
On most issues I'd agree with you, but on the pipeline I have to disagree...

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RE: Keystone Pipeline Morons - 2/23/2012 12:07:42 PM   
subrob1967


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I see Joe would rather see us throw away money at companies like Solyndra and Tesla, based on the fantasy of "green" energy. Ethanol, and the Tesla brick are perfect examples of why guys like Joe are completely wrong, and bringing this nation to ruin.

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RE: Keystone Pipeline Morons - 2/23/2012 12:10:31 PM   
tj444


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dude,.. ya'll are gonna need oil from somewhere.. you dont want the pipeline.. no skin off my nose.. go kiss the Saudis ass then.. btw, we will see how people squawk when gas prices rise drastically this summer, which will also cause prices of all food and goods to rise..

btw, do you expect the Saudis and other oil producing countries to just sit idly by, afterall, Canada now today does provide the US with more oil than all of the mid-east... they have been losing market share and arent happy about that..
"“We were shocked that only 37% of those who wrote complaining [about the equipment going to the oil sands] lived in the state and the rest were from places like Nigeria, Venezuela. Most were international,” he said. “The equipment was held up for quite some time and some is still held up awaiting permits.”
This was hardly surprising.
Nigeria and Venezuela are, like Saudi Arabia, suppliers of oil to the United States. Getting involved in opposition against the oil sands is simply a dirty trick against a competitor. But it’s also more. The oil sands can supply the world with lots more oil, thus keeping prices lower than otherwise.
Whether their oil dependent regimes are directly involved is difficult to know. That these regimes are likely to be involved, but have hidden their tracks, is a given.

The Saudi Arabians, kingpins in OPEC, have been hyper-vigilant for decades about the oil sands, whose reserves are the same size as the Kingdom’s at current price levels. This reality, long known to those of us who cover the energy scene, busted out publicly in Canada recently when the Saudi government embarked on strong-arm tactics to stop television commercials by a pro-oil sands NGO, or non-governmental organization, called EthicalOil.org."

http://opinion.financialpost.com/2011/09/23/foreign-interests-attack-oil-sands/

And.. China has also invested millions in the development of this particular oil sands project, they do want the oil if the US doesnt.. and that is where it will go.. approval for the pipeline to the BC coast is being moved forward right now.

< Message edited by tj444 -- 2/23/2012 12:11:44 PM >


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RE: Keystone Pipeline Morons - 2/23/2012 12:16:02 PM   
mnottertail


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LOL, we import 24% net of our oil from Canada today.  That is not the reason for the Keystone pipeline, to get the US more oil, or you would ship it to the nearest US refineries.

It is for Canada to get it to ship overseas to others from a trade free zone, and save some money per barrel in duties to have us handle shipping it for them.

WTF?  Doesn't anybody actually read and know the facts? 

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RE: Anti Keystone Pipeline Morons - 2/23/2012 12:27:55 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
LOL, we import 24% net of our oil from Canada today.  That is not the reason for the Keystone pipeline, to get the US more oil, or you would ship it to the nearest US refineries.

It is for Canada to get it to ship overseas to others from a trade free zone, and save some money per barrel in duties to have us handle shipping it for them.

WTF?  Doesn't anybody actually read and know the facts? 

Canada does provide more oil to the US than the mid-east tho.. I think you import about 20% from the mid-east... If this pipeline sends oil to the US refineries, then i would expect that supply can be diverted to US customers if needed..

What trade free zone? what duties? to whom? Canada can build the other pipeline instead and not pay duties to anyone.. personally, I would prefer the jobs stay in Canada, the refineries be built in Canada,.. and not bother with the US at all..



< Message edited by tj444 -- 2/23/2012 12:36:44 PM >


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RE: Anti Keystone Pipeline Morons - 2/23/2012 12:37:28 PM   
mnottertail


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already did that trade free thing with you last time, but in annswer to your other:

http://205.254.135.7/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=36&t=6

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RE: Anti Keystone Pipeline Morons - 2/23/2012 12:50:40 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

already did that trade free thing with you last time, but in annswer to your other:

http://205.254.135.7/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=36&t=6

so Canada is 24% and Saudi Arabia is 12%

The Kearl oil sands project is being developed by ExxonMobil, a US company, so Americans are profiting from the project also.. its not simply $$$ for Canada..

If I were an American, I would be for the pipeline.. but i am not an American so my viewpoint is as a Canadian.. I think its short sighted of Americans to turn the pipeline down.. jmo, of course..

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RE: Anti Keystone Pipeline Morons - 2/23/2012 12:54:28 PM   
LillyBoPeep


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With the rate of spills and leaks and "issues" with pipelines, I just really can't get behind it. There are loads of people here in NE who think some of our prairie lands are just as worthwhile to save as "pristine wilderness" in British Columbia.

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RE: Anti Keystone Pipeline Morons - 2/23/2012 1:02:38 PM   
Hillwilliam


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One of the main problems with the proposed keystone pipeline is the route through wetlands and problematic ROW acquisition.

Why dont they just put the new one alongside the existing keystone pipeline? That's right, I said EXISTING. We already have one. why do they want a different route for the second one?

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RE: Anti Keystone Pipeline Morons - 2/23/2012 1:06:18 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep
With the rate of spills and leaks and "issues" with pipelines, I just really can't get behind it. There are loads of people here in NE who think some of our prairie lands are just as worthwhile to save as "pristine wilderness" in British Columbia.

I dont disagree with you on that,.. the same can be said for using tankers and the pollution, spills, issues with that.. the bottom line is, everytime you drive/travel someplace, buy food or goods produced anywhere, it requires fuel and those are the trade-offs.. I dont like damage done either (to Alberta, to BC, to NE), hell, 25% of the pollution over Los Angeles is from China,.. but i still need to get from point A to point B, etc.. and i dont buy into auto mfrs ovepriced hybrid shite.. i have thought about a true electric converted used vehicle but, if you need to transport stuff, that requires fuel..

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RE: Anti Keystone Pipeline Morons - 2/23/2012 1:13:48 PM   
mnottertail


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http://www.businessweek.com/top-news/the-questionable-economics-of-the-keystone-xl-pipeline-02172012.html

and the figure on the trade free portion is low, by most all other accounts


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RE: Anti Keystone Pipeline Morons - 2/23/2012 1:48:09 PM   
GrandPoobah


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Several thoughts, in response to several previous posts.

It's interesting to note that they COULD put an alternative pipeline through Canada. In fact, they've applied to do so. However, oddly enough, it's been blocked by environment concerns expressed by Canadians! Whoops. I guess maybe there are REAL PROBLEMS that exist beyond the political boundaries of the US.

How could anyone approve the proposal, when there really ISN'T a proposal right now? In some places, there isn't even a proposed route...just a dashed line that says..."we'll go from here to...about there" somehow! It's like your son or daughter coming home and saying "I'm getting married, and I want your approval." You ask to whom, and they respond "I'm not sure yet, but I'll find somebody...I guess." Until there's a concrete "plan" there's nothing to approve.

"The Kearl oil sands project is being developed by ExxonMobil, a US company, so Americans are profiting from the project also.. its not simply $$$ for Canada." I seriously doubt that too many people outside of the stockholders of Exxon believe this. Exxon might make lots of money...or not, but they pay so little in taxes it has almost no effect on ordinary Americans. They probably would keep the money outside of the US anyway, to they'd be able to pay NO TAXES, just like GE, who made billions last year, but managed to hide it all in Europe and paid ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in US taxes on billions in profits.

Spills, accidents, disasters, leaks...call them what you will, but the fact is they continually happen. Just remember that little "problem" down in the gulf a couple years ago. When half of Nebraska is destroyed, somebody's likely to notice. And that doesn't consider the harm being done to the environment in Canada...which just happens to send air and pollution our way every day.

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RE: Anti Keystone Pipeline Morons - 2/23/2012 2:14:16 PM   
DomKen


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To know why the Republicans want this completely unneeded pipeline, a pipeline that can handle more than will ever be pumped out of the tar sands already exists, it is only necessary to see what companies stand to profit from building it.

Haliburton and Koch Pipeline

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RE: Keystone Pipeline Morons - 2/24/2012 12:45:09 AM   
joether


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967
I see Joe would rather see us throw away money at companies like Solyndra and Tesla, based on the fantasy of "green" energy. Ethanol, and the Tesla brick are perfect examples of why guys like Joe are completely wrong, and bringing this nation to ruin.


Did I ever state in the OP that we should 'throw away money at companies like Solyndra and Tesla...'? No, I posted a letter from a moron Republican whom doesnt have all his facts straight and/or all his ducks in a row! Maybe you should get your facts straight before attacking someone else's thoughts on a topic, subrob. Maybe you could explain to all of us, why you are supporting a plan that is at best, half baked, full of kickbacks to the oil industry, and chalked full of lies from 'how it will improve the economy' to 'how safe it will be on the enviroment'?

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RE: Anti Keystone Pipeline Morons - 2/24/2012 8:36:29 AM   
Fellow


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quote:

To know why the Republicans want this completely unneeded pipeline, a pipeline that can handle more than will ever be pumped out of the tar sands already exists, it is only necessary to see what companies stand to profit from building it.

Haliburton and Koch Pipeline

On the other hand, Warren Buffet would profit from Keystone cancellation (owns railroad business). Buffet, of course is top Obama supporter and Obama has made it into the list of top ten most corrupt politicians. When searching logic and justifications of the government actions simple corruption is the first thing to look at.

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RE: Keystone Pipeline Morons - 2/24/2012 8:39:57 AM   
subrob1967


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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

Did I ever state in the OP that we should 'throw away money at companies like Solyndra and Tesla...'? No, I posted a letter from a moron Republican whom doesnt have all his facts straight and/or all his ducks in a row! Maybe you should get your facts straight before attacking someone else's thoughts on a topic, subrob. Maybe you could explain to all of us, why you are supporting a plan that is at best, half baked, full of kickbacks to the oil industry, and chalked full of lies from 'how it will improve the economy' to 'how safe it will be on the enviroment'?

Really? A 'big step' changing the daily consumption by 5%? How about we get into solar, wind, and hydro technology? Promote electric cars in the inner city and areas immediately outside of them? No no, we Republicans cant do any of that; that would be be intelligent and wise and honestly, when was the last time we accused ANYONE in the GOP of placing the needs of the country ahead of themselves or the people they are trying to give kick-backs too?


I think spending $7 Billion to build solar and wind farms, hydoelectric plants would be a much better investment in our country's future energy needs, than giving our money to another country while keeping our heads buried up our asses with the delusional thinking that 'we'll find that one mega deposit of oil in our country next year....'


That would be it right there, I made it bold just for you... I don't give a shit about the "potential effects" on the environment, like the article says, we already have a shitload of pipelines crisscrossing this country. Blocking a proven technology without already having a cost effective alternative in place is fucking madness, and that's all the Obama administration has done in the last 3 years.

quote:

In early 2010, he proposed to open some new areas to drilling but shut that down after the Gulf oil spill. According to the Greater New Orleans Gulf Permits Index for January 31, over the previous three months the feds issued an average of three deep-water drilling permits a month compared to the historical average of seven. Over the same three months, the feds approved an average of 4.7 shallow-water permits a month, compared to the historical average of 14.7.

Approval of an offshore drilling plan now takes 92 days, 31 more than the historical average. And so far in 2012, an average of 23% of all drilling plans have been approved, compared to the average of 73.4%.

Oh, and don't forget the Keystone XL pipeline, which would have increased the delivery of oil from Canada and North Dakota's Bakken Shale to Gulf Coast refineries, replacing oil from Venezuela.
Source

I know you lefties love Chavez, and Venezuela, but I think the US could do without that oil if the enviro nuts would just go away.

< Message edited by subrob1967 -- 2/24/2012 8:41:25 AM >


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RE: Anti Keystone Pipeline Morons - 2/24/2012 8:40:11 AM   
mnottertail


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Yeah, I am sure that is it, no other explanation possible, which of the 10 republicans did he knock off that list to make 10?

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RE: Anti Keystone Pipeline Morons - 2/24/2012 8:41:33 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fellow
On the other hand, Warren Buffet would profit from Keystone cancellation (owns railroad business). Buffet, of course is top Obama supporter and Obama has made it into the list of top ten most corrupt politicians. When searching logic and justifications of the government actions simple corruption is the first thing to look at.

gawd, dont get me started on Buffett!!!

http://reason.com/archives/2012/02/09/warren-buffett-baptist-and-bootlegger/singlepage

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RE: Anti Keystone Pipeline Morons - 2/24/2012 8:56:18 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967
quote:

In early 2010, he proposed to open some new areas to drilling but shut that down after the Gulf oil spill. According to the Greater New Orleans Gulf Permits Index for January 31, over the previous three months the feds issued an average of three deep-water drilling permits a month compared to the historical average of seven. Over the same three months, the feds approved an average of 4.7 shallow-water permits a month, compared to the historical average of 14.7.

Approval of an offshore drilling plan now takes 92 days, 31 more than the historical average. And so far in 2012, an average of 23% of all drilling plans have been approved, compared to the average of 73.4%.

Oh, and don't forget the Keystone XL pipeline, which would have increased the delivery of oil from Canada and North Dakota's Bakken Shale to Gulf Coast refineries, replacing oil from Venezuela.
Source

I know you lefties love Chavez, and Venezuela, but I think the US could do without that oil if the enviro nuts would just go away.

I watched cnbcs Filthy Rich.. Equatorial Guinea.. fucking amazing theft of the peoples money from oil.. $30 million shack in Malibu, parties.. this is one place where Americans get their oil from..

"70% of the population living under the United Nations Poverty Threshold of $2/day"
"most of the country's considerable oil wealth actually lies in the hands of only a few people."
"Equatorial Guinea has one of the worst human rights records in the world, consistently ranking among the "worst of the worst""
"In July 2004, the United States Senate published an investigation into Riggs Bank, a Washington-based bank into which most of Equatorial Guinea's oil revenues were paid until recently, and which also banked for Chile's Augusto Pinochet. The Senate report, as to Equatorial Guinea, showed that at least $35 million were siphoned off by Obiang, his family and senior officials of his regime. The president has denied any wrongdoing."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equatorial_Guinea

< Message edited by tj444 -- 2/24/2012 8:59:11 AM >


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