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Free Speech or Fraud? - 2/22/2012 2:15:08 PM   
Hillwilliam


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Status: offline 		http://news.yahoo.com/stolen-valor-act-supreme-court-lying-being-hero-132800911.html

The stolen valor act criminalizes lying about military service.

What say you folks? Free speech or Fraud?

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RE: Free Speech or Fraud? - 2/22/2012 2:31:18 PM   
thompsonx


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Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		When one considers what some folks have got medals for(thinking here specifically of mcarthur and yeager getting the moh).
Wonder if we could apply the law to politicians who make knowingly false or misleading statements.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
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RE: Free Speech or Fraud? - 2/22/2012 2:36:04 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Wonder if we could apply the law to politicians who make knowingly false or misleading statements.

There would be no politic..................SHIT, that's a good idea.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to thompsonx)
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RE: Free Speech or Fraud? - 2/22/2012 3:06:15 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Wonder if we could apply the law to politicians who make knowingly false or misleading statements.

There would be no politic..................SHIT, that's a good idea.

I have many good ideas.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
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RE: Free Speech or Fraud? - 2/22/2012 4:58:42 PM   
SoftBonds


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

http://news.yahoo.com/stolen-valor-act-supreme-court-lying-being-hero-132800911.html

The stolen valor act criminalizes lying about military service.

What say you folks? Free speech or Fraud?

Ouch, that is a really tough one.
I think the solution is to make the military database of medals earned open to all US citizens (or everyone, on the internet) and let folks check at will. Then the folks who want to lie about medals can lie, and everyone else can see they are lying. I hate to let these scumbags get away with it, but free speech is probably our most important right, or in the top 3 if not number 1...
Of course, the database isn't always accurate, but where the MOH is concerned, I'm sure it is 100%...

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RE: Free Speech or Fraud? - 2/22/2012 5:31:21 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

I hate to let these scumbags get away with it,


Do you feel that all liars are scumbags or just those who lie about the medals they have been awarded?

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RE: Free Speech or Fraud? - 2/22/2012 7:31:53 PM   
Hillwilliam


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Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline 		Frequently, folks tell about military service to gain advantage.

It could be a buncha guys watching football, drinking beers and one-upping each other or it could be to obtain employment. In the event that the gain is financial, I'm firmly in the "It's fraud, prosecute them" camp.

Lying to get money is fraud. Plain and simple.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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RE: Free Speech or Fraud? - 2/23/2012 7:47:36 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

Lying to get money is fraud. Plain and simple.


Like used car salesmen?

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RE: Free Speech or Fraud? - 2/23/2012 7:52:54 AM   
SoftBonds


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Frequently, folks tell about military service to gain advantage.

It could be a buncha guys watching football, drinking beers and one-upping each other or it could be to obtain employment. In the event that the gain is financial, I'm firmly in the "It's fraud, prosecute them" camp.

Lying to get money is fraud. Plain and simple.

Some of the cases I have heard about were politicians, I think if the records were freely available, those would go down in flames.
Others were folks using their "heroism," to help get jobs, I think you are right that it is fraud.
Maybe if the law said something like "lying about medals for financial advantage is fraud, and the victim/s can sue for treble damages," would work. It doesn't limit free speech IMHO, but it does address the problem.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
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RE: Free Speech or Fraud? - 2/23/2012 7:55:56 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SoftBonds


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Frequently, folks tell about military service to gain advantage.

It could be a buncha guys watching football, drinking beers and one-upping each other or it could be to obtain employment. In the event that the gain is financial, I'm firmly in the "It's fraud, prosecute them" camp.

Lying to get money is fraud. Plain and simple.

Some of the cases I have heard about were politicians, I think if the records were freely available, those would go down in flames.
Others were folks using their "heroism," to help get jobs, I think you are right that it is fraud.
Maybe if the law said something like "lying about medals for financial advantage is fraud, and the victim/s can sue for treble damages," would work. It doesn't limit free speech IMHO, but it does address the problem.


The records of who has been awarded the moh is on the net.[/n]

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RE: Free Speech or Fraud? - 2/23/2012 12:36:24 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

Lying to get money is fraud. Plain and simple.


Like used car salesmen?


If you can prove the fraud, go get 'em hoss! If you can't prove it, bringing it to light could be libel.

IMO, something as honorable as receiving a Med,al of Service should be protected from abuse, and I would support laws intended to prevent abuse and penalize abusers if they still abuse that record.

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RE: Free Speech or Fraud? - 2/23/2012 12:45:34 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: SoftBonds


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Frequently, folks tell about military service to gain advantage.

It could be a buncha guys watching football, drinking beers and one-upping each other or it could be to obtain employment. In the event that the gain is financial, I'm firmly in the "It's fraud, prosecute them" camp.

Lying to get money is fraud. Plain and simple.

Some of the cases I have heard about were politicians, I think if the records were freely available, those would go down in flames.
Others were folks using their "heroism," to help get jobs, I think you are right that it is fraud.
Maybe if the law said something like "lying about medals for financial advantage is fraud, and the victim/s can sue for treble damages," would work. It doesn't limit free speech IMHO, but it does address the problem.


The records of who has been awarded the moh is on the net.[/n]

The MOH is available on the net in several places but are the other awards available?
AS I said before, if it's a buncha guys one-upping each other over beers watching football, that's one thing but even saying one was in the service to get a 50 cent discount on a beer if you weren't is fraud and should be prosecuted.

Better yet, let people who WERE in the service play with em.

They'll at least have real scars to show.

ETA, I have no idea why that was bolded.

< Message edited by Hillwilliam -- 2/23/2012 12:46:51 PM >

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to thompsonx)
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RE: Free Speech or Fraud? - 2/23/2012 6:00:38 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Free speech. A miserable, appalling use of free speech, that may sometimes qualify as fraud, depending on where and how such lies are told, but free speech.

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: Free Speech or Fraud? - 2/23/2012 6:13:08 PM   
Fightdirecto


Posts: 1101
Joined: 8/3/2004
Status: offline 		A guy trying to impress somebody in a bar lying about his military service is one thing. Ignore them.

A man or woman lying about their military service in order to convince someone to vote for them to an elective office is a different matter. Throw them in jail for a while and make sure the story is on CNN, Fox-News and the front page of their local newspaper. Maybe even something similar to a sex offender registry after they complete their jail term.

DISCLAIMER: I have numerous medals earned during my service (27 years combined active Army and Army Reserves and two wars - Vietnam and Grenada), so I can't be objective.

_____________________________

"I swore never to be silent whenever and wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.””
- Ellie Wiesel

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RE: Free Speech or Fraud? - 2/23/2012 6:55:00 PM   
erieangel


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Joined: 6/19/2011
Status: offline 		I think most of the time, claims to military service and medals awarded are just ego-boosters for those making the claim and no harm is done, as in the United States v. Alvarez case which the SCOTUS is currently deciding.

However, in the case of a politician lying about military service in order to get elected, or to make the case for himself running for an higher--that should be against the law. If we can't trust our politicians to tell the truth about something as easily fact-checked as military service, how are we supposed to trust them with the good of the country? Make it a law that anybody who lies about their military record is banned from ever running for political office.

(in reply to Fightdirecto)
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RE: Free Speech or Fraud? - 2/23/2012 7:07:23 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Wonder if we could apply the law to politicians who make knowingly false or misleading statements.

There would be no politic..................SHIT, that's a good idea.


they would simply claim immunity and the people would not know any better.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
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RE: Free Speech or Fraud? - 2/24/2012 5:18:50 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel
If we can't trust our politicians to tell the truth about something as easily fact-checked as military service, how are we supposed to trust them with the good of the country? Make it a law that anybody who lies about their military record is banned from ever running for political office.


Interestingly enough, I'm not sure we can trust them with the good of the country to begin with. Even those who do not lie about receiving medals, or make no false claim regarding service.

(in reply to erieangel)
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RE: Free Speech or Fraud? - 2/24/2012 7:29:23 AM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

ADISCLAIMER: I have numerous medals earned during my service (27 years combined active Army and Army Reserves and two wars - Vietnam and Grenada), so I can't be objective.

If I havent said so before, thank you for your service.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to Fightdirecto)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Free Speech or Fraud? - 2/24/2012 9:26:45 AM   
Fightdirecto


Posts: 1101
Joined: 8/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto
DISCLAIMER: I have numerous medals earned during my service (27 years combined active Army and Army Reserves and two wars - Vietnam and Grenada), so I can't be objective.

If I havent said so before, thank you for your service.

Da nada...a man does what he feels he must do...

I must confess, however, I find it irritating when I am told by some American Conservative who never served a day in the U.S. military (i.e. Cheney, Gingrich, Limbaugh, Coulter, Beck) that I am "un-American" and that I "hate my country" because I am (and always have been) politically liberal.

I love it when American Conservatives get confused when they look at the back of my car and see both the "John Kerry For Senate" sticker and the U.S. Army Ranger decal. It drives them nuts...




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Fightdirecto -- 2/24/2012 9:27:37 AM >

_____________________________

"I swore never to be silent whenever and wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.””
- Ellie Wiesel

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
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RE: Free Speech or Fraud? - 2/24/2012 1:22:27 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

A guy trying to impress somebody in a bar lying about his military service is one thing. Ignore them.

A man or woman lying about their military service in order to convince someone to vote for them to an elective office is a different matter. Throw them in jail for a while and make sure the story is on CNN, Fox-News and the front page of their local newspaper. Maybe even something similar to a sex offender registry after they complete their jail term.

DISCLAIMER: I have numerous medals earned during my service (27 years combined active Army and Army Reserves and two wars - Vietnam and Grenada), so I can't be objective.


the constitution among other things is a "trust" compact.

Have you ever looked into songbird mcains records? The national archives buried them when he ran for el prazzidante. Likewise with the nazi coup dubya grandaddy attempted on this government.

it is truely a small world in the american ruling elite.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Fightdirecto)
Profile   Post #: 20
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