RE: Georgia Law Could Give Death Penalty for Miscarriages

RE: Georgia Law Could Give Death Penalty for Miscarriages (Full Version)

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SternSkipper -> RE: Georgia Law Could Give Death Penalty for Miscarriages (2/20/2012 11:20:23 AM)
quote: At least the bill doesn't propose instituting pro-life Stork Bucks or outlawing "space abortions"...yet. Kris Shcaal is a laugh goddess.

slvemike4u -> RE: Georgia Law Could Give Death Penalty for Miscarriages (2/20/2012 2:18:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri I think the intentions of this bill (though, perhaps not clearly defined), regarding miscarriages, are to protect fetuses and to make it a crime to actively participate in the death of the fetus. An non-"natural" manner of miscarriage could include behaviors that put the fetus at risk, including alcohol consumption, smoking, drugs, and other manner that could be decided to be neglect or endangerment. It would also criminalize those who harm a pregnant woman, also causing her to miscarry. The alteration of victim to accuser in those instances could very easily be due to the "innocent until proven guilty" rules we live by. Think of the Duke rape case. The woman that was the rape "victim" was no victim. She was an accuser and the Duke Lacrosse team members were found not guilty. All that being said...how you can hold someone accountable for something they don't even know, is ridiculous. Thus, if a woman is 20 days pregnant (according to the OP's quoted section, common pregnancy tests aren't accurate until at least 21 days) and she drinks heavily and miscarries, how is she fairy accountable for child endangerment or neglect? I like that there are people willing to make laws that protect a fetus from harm. I really do. I also like that there are people who are looking out for unintended consequences of vague and ambiguous laws. This bill, in the form cited, should not pass. It should not even come up for a vote. It is too vague and needs to be better focused. There should be little "wiggle room" for transient fad interpretations. This is how things go awry so quickly. I just came off moderation,so all I'm going to do here is welcome you to the wonderful world of CollarMe....you should fit in nicely [:)] Please take a seat on the FAR-right of the auditorium [8\|]

SoftBonds -> RE: Georgia Law Could Give Death Penalty for Miscarriages (2/20/2012 3:05:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri I have not made any direct comment against Medicare because of the un-Constitutionality, but I have made the comment that Government shouldn't pay for anyone's health insurance/care because it isn't in the Constitution. I accept that I referred to Medicare, but it is also more than just Medicare. Yeah, the government pays for VA medical care too!

tazzygirl -> RE: Georgia Law Could Give Death Penalty for Miscarriages (2/20/2012 3:32:44 PM)
quote: I just came off moderation,so all I'm going to do here is welcome you to the wonderful world of CollarMe....you should fit in nicely Please take a seat on the FAR-right of the auditorium welcome back, my darlin

slvemike4u -> RE: Georgia Law Could Give Death Penalty for Miscarriages (2/20/2012 4:34:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: I just came off moderation,so all I'm going to do here is welcome you to the wonderful world of CollarMe....you should fit in nicely Please take a seat on the FAR-right of the auditorium welcome back, my darlin So good to be back,and Tazzy this man has never been happier,my life is golden these days [:)] Perhaps that will help me keep a civil tongue around here,I know I have been warned that future moderation s are going to come with a stiff penalty....not talking about the mods either [:)]

tazzygirl -> RE: Georgia Law Could Give Death Penalty for Miscarriages (2/20/2012 4:57:04 PM)
Uh huh... I know what you are talking about. Just remember, your every action reflects upon her now, regardless if anyone knows who she is.... you do... your actions reflect upon her abilities. Some days I remember that myself. [;)]

slvemike4u -> RE: Georgia Law Could Give Death Penalty for Miscarriages (2/20/2012 6:13:19 PM)
Too true,as a matter of fact She had a conversation with me the other day along those lines [;)]

thishereboi -> RE: Georgia Law Could Give Death Penalty for Miscarriages (2/21/2012 4:32:41 AM)
quote: Utah passed a similar bill, sponsored by Sen. Margaret Dayton, a Republican, into law in February of 2010 that allows women to be criminally charged if they cannot prove a miscarriage was accidental. Women could be legally held responsible for miscarriages caused by “reckless behavior.” Wow, I didn't realize we had a law like this and it's been around for 2 years already. How many women have they gone after so far? I am surprised we haven't read about the different cases already.

DarkSteven -> RE: Georgia Law Could Give Death Penalty for Miscarriages (2/21/2012 4:52:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi quote: Utah passed a similar bill, sponsored by Sen. Margaret Dayton, a Republican, into law in February of 2010 that allows women to be criminally charged if they cannot prove a miscarriage was accidental. Women could be legally held responsible for miscarriages caused by “reckless behavior.” Wow, I didn't realize we had a law like this and it's been around for 2 years already. How many women have they gone after so far? I am surprised we haven't read about the different cases already. Why are you surprised? 1. If I interpret this right, the first step would be a doctor reporting this to authorities. Any ob-gyn doing this could kiss his or her patients goodbye. Not to mention that this would likely be a violation of doctor-patient confidentiality and HIPAA. 2. If any prosecutor tried to push this, he or she would get laughed at and his or her ass handed to them by the court. Clear violation of the SCOTIS Roe vs Wade ruling (how can a state criminalize something that is required to be legal at the federal level?), as well as the bedrock presumption of innocence.

kalikshama -> RE: Georgia Law Could Give Death Penalty for Miscarriages (2/21/2012 5:19:27 AM)
quote: Yeah, the government pays for VA medical care too! Yo, I EARNED that!

DesideriScuri -> RE: Georgia Law Could Give Death Penalty for Miscarriages (2/21/2012 5:26:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi quote: Utah passed a similar bill, sponsored by Sen. Margaret Dayton, a Republican, into law in February of 2010 that allows women to be criminally charged if they cannot prove a miscarriage was accidental. Women could be legally held responsible for miscarriages caused by “reckless behavior.” Wow, I didn't realize we had a law like this and it's been around for 2 years already. How many women have they gone after so far? I am surprised we haven't read about the different cases already. Why are you surprised? 1. If I interpret this right, the first step would be a doctor reporting this to authorities. Any ob-gyn doing this could kiss his or her patients goodbye. Not to mention that this would likely be a violation of doctor-patient confidentiality and HIPAA. 2. If any prosecutor tried to push this, he or she would get laughed at and his or her ass handed to them by the court. Clear violation of the SCOTIS Roe vs Wade ruling (how can a state criminalize something that is required to be legal at the federal level?), as well as the bedrock presumption of innocence. Roe v. Wade was about abortion, not miscarriage. Right now, Doctors, Nurses, Teachers, DayCare workers, and probably others, are required by law to report any possible cases of child abuse. If there are signs of possible abuse and they don't report it, there are severe legal repercussions. This would, I assume, be a similar reporting requirement. I concur with the last part of your second point.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Georgia Law Could Give Death Penalty for Miscarriages (2/21/2012 5:44:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u I just came off moderation,so all I'm going to do here is welcome you to the wonderful world of CollarMe....you should fit in nicely [:)] Please take a seat on the FAR-right of the auditorium [8\|] Thanks for the welcome. Don't care where in the auditorium I sit (with only provision) as I am not truly a partisan. My only seating provision is that it be next to the Constitution. In a nutshell: I fully believe the intention of the Founders was for a conservative interpretation of the US Constitution. So, all my arguments will stem from there. I fully believe Government owes We the People conservative fiscal policies. I am all for robust social welfare programs, but not through Government agencies; private agencies are much more efficient than bureaucracies. quote: quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri I have not made any direct comment against Medicare because of the un-Constitutionality, but I have made the comment that Government shouldn't pay for anyone's health insurance/care because it isn't in the Constitution. I accept that I referred to Medicare, but it is also more than just Medicare. ORIGINAL: SoftBonds Yeah, the government pays for VA medical care too! The difference, though, is that those the Government is providing medical care for have served our Country and would have given their lives to protect every one of us. In essence, it's more of an employer/employee program. I absolutely do fully support the Federal VA programs. The only question I have in regards to those programs is, "are they doing enough?"

slvemike4u -> RE: Georgia Law Could Give Death Penalty for Miscarriages (2/21/2012 5:53:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u I just came off moderation,so all I'm going to do here is welcome you to the wonderful world of CollarMe....you should fit in nicely [:)] Please take a seat on the FAR-right of the auditorium [8\|] Thanks for the welcome. Don't care where in the auditorium I sit (with only provision) as I am not truly a partisan. My only seating provision is that it be next to the Constitution. In a nutshell: I fully believe the intention of the Founders was for a conservative interpretation of the US Constitution. So, all my arguments will stem from there. I fully believe Government owes We the People conservative fiscal policies. I am all for robust social welfare programs, but not through Government agencies; private agencies are much more efficient than bureaucracies. quote: quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri I have not made any direct comment against Medicare because of the un-Constitutionality, but I have made the comment that Government shouldn't pay for anyone's health insurance/care because it isn't in the Constitution. I accept that I referred to Medicare, but it is also more than just Medicare. ORIGINAL: SoftBonds Yeah, the government pays for VA medical care too! The difference, though, is that those the Government is providing medical care for have served our Country and would have given their lives to protect every one of us. In essence, it's more of an employer/employee program. I absolutely do fully support the Federal VA programs. The only question I have in regards to those programs is, "are they doing enough?" And I fully believe in a living,breathing document.Made purposefully vague so as to be elastic enough to serve future generations of Americans....checkmate [:)]

Edwynn -> RE: Georgia Law Could Give Death Penalty for Miscarriages (2/21/2012 6:04:32 AM)
quote: Roe v. Wade was about abortion, not miscarriage. It is tossing missiles from another direction. It has everything to do with getting to the goal of legal prevention of abortion, this being one potential pathway. This legal stratagem is one siege machine. If found to be successful, more will follow. There are already laws in place concerning death to the fetus in a violent act upon the mother. Though simply making it a greater crime for the violent act to result in fetal death was all that was necessary, and already in place in many states, a particular interested party succeeded in changing the existing laws or having new laws pass that held the death of the fetus to be a separate offense, thereby setting the precedent of granting separate legal status to the fetus. The claim of the slippery slope leading to you-know-where asserted by those opposing this precedent seems to be valid, as evidenced by this further excursion into 'fetal rights' of these new laws.

kalikshama -> RE: Georgia Law Could Give Death Penalty for Miscarriages (2/21/2012 6:09:00 AM)
quote: The difference, though, is that those the Government is providing medical care for have served our Country and would have given their lives to protect every one of us. In essence, it's more of an employer/employee program. I absolutely do fully support the Federal VA programs. The only question I have in regards to those programs is, "are they doing enough?" No, especially if one has a uterus.

slvemike4u -> RE: Georgia Law Could Give Death Penalty for Miscarriages (2/21/2012 6:34:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn quote: Roe v. Wade was about abortion, not miscarriage. It is tossing missiles from another direction. It has everything to do with getting to the goal of legal prevention of abortion, this being one potential pathway. This legal stratagem is one siege machine. If found to be successful, more will follow. There are already laws in place concerning death to the fetus in a violent act upon the mother. Though simply making it a greater crime for the violent act to result in fetal death was all that was necessary, and already in place in many states, a particular interested party succeeded in changing the existing laws or having new laws pass that held the death of the fetus to be a separate offense, thereby setting the precedent of granting separate legal status to the fetus. The claim of the slippery slope leading to you-know-where asserted by those opposing this precedent seems to be valid, as evidenced by this further excursion into 'fetal rights' of these new laws. This.....roe v wade is indeed under attack,the fact that it is not a frontal assault is simply a matter of strategic planning on the part of the religious right. Chipping away is tactical thinking with a strategic end .

Edwynn -> RE: Georgia Law Could Give Death Penalty for Miscarriages (2/21/2012 6:45:11 AM)
Like the stratagem of trying to introduce 'intelligent design' into the schools. But it's not about creationism. Honest.

mnottertail -> RE: Georgia Law Could Give Death Penalty for Miscarriages (2/21/2012 6:55:41 AM)
Well, a federal law should include some language that if georgia does this each party to the event must have at least one solid tooth in their head and cannot share more than one parent. That will pretty much take care of it.

SoftBonds -> RE: Georgia Law Could Give Death Penalty for Miscarriages (2/21/2012 8:48:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kalikshama quote: Yeah, the government pays for VA medical care too! Yo, I EARNED that! Yes, you did! Not saying it is wrong, just that it is Government provided health care. Specifically, VA care is similar to the British system, while Medicare is similar to the Canadian system. Between the two the US pays about the same amount per person for health care as the British do, the British just are able to cover everyone else with the money since they don't have to pay for the Insurance companies profits and denial of care paperwork.

xssve -> RE: Georgia Law Could Give Death Penalty for Miscarriages (2/21/2012 8:51:21 AM)
Political grandstanding, as of the moment, such a law is unconstitutional. I'm quite sure the entire intent is to generate another case for the SCOTUS in hopes of overturning Roe v. Wade.

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