Kaliko
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ORIGINAL: Aswad
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ORIGINAL: Kaliko
But you are talking about it.
You call this talking about it?
Yes. :) That's kind of exactly what we're doing.
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I've hardly mentioned animal cruelty. I've mentioned PETA and being fed up with them. I've said nothing about the local cases that have been happening lately. Since there was another "animal interest group" case lately, I dropped tracking down the guy that was shooting dogs where I used to live. Just lost the energy for it. (This is the first time I've even mentioned it in a week.)
Even so, someone may be reading this conversation, and may look at the PETA site, and may be swayed by what they have posted there, and then PETA will have partly accomplished what it set out to do. And you and I would have assisted in that. There's no way to not talk about things like this, I know. And so does PETA.
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And some of those people may be changed for it.
Doesn't mean shit if you're accomplishing a net loss.
Is that measurable? I think that maybe you and I just view things in a bit of a different perspective. If I were a vegan (let's say at least partly as a result of attention being drawn to certain animal rights issues in the media by PETA) and if I influenced, say, 5 people that know me to alter their dietary habits by nothing more than example and discussion (as often happens), and then if one of those people became a full-on vegetarian and then influenced people in his world, etc...would that negate...well...would that negate who, exactly? So you are eating meat now. Does your dislike of PETA cause you to eat even more meat? Where is the net loss? ***See below***
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Um...are you correcting Ghandi?
I would, but he's not around anymore.
Pretty sure he'd be humble enough to welcome the suggestion and find a better wording for it.
Yeah...I was kind of pretty clearly agreeing with you. And, that was kind of a joke. :)
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You respond negatively to PETA. But some people do respond positively to them. They aren't alienating all their allies. They are appealing to someone different than you.
I give a shit who they're appealing to. They're offending people who care about the things they claim to care about, and they know it. Incidentally, I know a lot of former members. They're burned out and have accomplished nothing, except to hurt the cause and themselves. Maybe your PETAs are different.
And I don't disagree with you there. It's the same PETA. (Perhaps I should say again - I am not a fan of their tactics. I don't approve of them and I'm not a member. I'm just making a statement that they can be effective.)
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But...a fur coat has very negative connotations these days. (My apologies to anyone who owns a fur coat.)
Uhm. No?
Maybe around your parts. Around here, they made a big deal out of it, then sales skyrocketed a while in protest, then it went back to normal. It's got a higher status than before, and production is up. No idea if that's what you consider a negative connotation.
Oh, yeah, they also managed to bump the date for considering a ban on fur farming from this year to 2014 in the process, securing at least two more years of fur farming as a protected, subsidized industry. Part of the issue was compensating the fur farmers for losses after a farm spring op a while back (all the animals were tracked down and killed, by the way, then replaced with new ones on state insurance; I'm sure they cut a few corners in catching up, but nobody wanted to look into that sort of thing for a while after). The moderates had been gaining ground, including putting a ban on the agenda, and the radicals blasted it out of the water. It looks highly improbable that anyone will be able to regain the lost ground by the time the case comes back, so it may be a permanent loss, rather than just a couple of years lost.
Yeah, I'm negative about that kind of sabotage, especially coupled with chest thumping without any real results. They may well be appealing to a different brand of animal friend. I have a name for that brand of person, but it would be rather impolite to relay it.
No it's just the overall feeling. Just like the general feeling that eating veal is bad, or declawing cats is bad. Wearing a fur coat has a certain connotation to it. I don't think it's my area versus another area, and there will always be people that wear fur coats. And understand....my point is not that wearing fur coats is bad. My question is - why does wearing a fur coat carry stigma when a wool coat doesn't. Wasn't an animal used to make both? Do you think it has nothing to do with the publicizing of extremists harassing people who wore fur coats some time ago?
I'm making a generalization here about how the general perception is about fur coats, and I shouldn't be doing that. I hate it when generalizations are made like that. But I can't help but feel that there is that generalization. No?
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I was listening to a radio interview one time by a PETA member and at that moment I was actually embarrassed that people might associate me with them as I was a vegetarian.
Quite understandable.
Even the former PETAs I know are embarassed to have had an association.
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The woman sounded like an idiot. But, they play a role. They are sparking conversation and generating awareness.
Conversation is pointless.
Awareness is of questionable value, and must be well timed.
The issue isn't making people aware, but causing change. If you're not able to "cull the herd", so to speak, then change must come about by indoctrination (which is eventually internalized, then normalized, then becomes part of the selection pressure), or by legislation (which is only marginally less distasteful as an option than are the PETAs). Either of those two takes sustained, organized and disciplined effort by people who are able to do something other than frothing and lashing out blindly. And it takes doing it at the right time, better than anyone with an opposing interest.
I think, though, that people - perfectly logical people with nary a froth or a lash - can be influenced by PETA in the direction PETA intends. I would be one of them, I suppose. Long ago, I was a member. I had the sticker on my car and everything. No longer, and I would more be in that category of your friends who are embarrassed to have had a former association with PETA. But I did learn about some issues that at the time were important to me, and I did ultimately wind up a long-time vegetarian and struggling vegan, and I have influenced people by example. And I don't froth. Barely ever.
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If the petbangers had a positive influence in regard to fur in your area, good for you. Around here, they've mostly given up on fur for the moment, since that battle was lost once they touched it (Midas in reverse), and have gone on to conflating it with other animal product clothing as part of a failed (see a pattern?) attack on the meat industry. The meat industry has started saving more cow and sheep skins at a loss, to make better use of the animals already being killed as food (a result of ethical awareness campaigning by the moderates). This change for the better has the petbangers on the war path, and the products (which were edging their way into taking a bite out of other markets, such as fur) are being targetted now, with the companies realizing that there can be no quarter against petbangers, thus siding firmly with their livelihoods.
Used to be enough moderates to have a grass roots effect, too, but mention the issues now and people think you're a radical and close their ears.
Agreed, very much. It's rather hard even to just tell people that I was a vegetarian without them wondering if I was going to start picking apart their meal choices and ramming pamphlets down their throats. And...okay...as I'm writing this, perhaps this is where that net loss is. Perhaps the actions of PETA don't make people eat any more meat than they already are, but they make people less open to learning about issues in any way, thinking we're all just like PETA. Okay. I get that, now.
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Hopefully, it hasn't gone quite that far where you're at.
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I have a suspicion they know full well when to be radical and when to not be, and that the effect they have on the public is more calculated than we may think.
If there's anything calculated about the effect they have on the public where I live, then I vote to suspend their breathing privileges.
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I'm making the argument that they are effective, not that they are reasonable.
Using black slave women as guinea pigs without anaesthesia brought about gynecological surgery. Aktion T4 was effective against Huntington's, Parkinson's, and various other hereditary diseases. Experiments at Detrick, at Vector, in Unit 731, and in various concentration camps have made valuable contributions to medical science. Hiroshima and Nagasaki can be credited with Japanese industry becoming cutting edge. Anti-vivisectionists were blamed for a slowdown in medical research. Killing prostitutes is an effective way to curb STD transmission, just ask Jack the Ripper.
Efficiency isn't necessarily a good metric.
Being reasonable usually is.
Health,
al-Aswad.
And again, I agree with you. You've stated it with much more of an impact than me, but that's essentially what I was trying to say. I'm not defending what they do. I'm only saying that it gets results.
< Message edited by Kaliko -- 2/19/2012 1:03:33 PM >
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RE: Damn good thing I'm not Vegan - 
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). Ten minutes of "staying power" is nothing. Twenty to twenty five minutes of piston pumping a pussy is my average and on a good night, thirty-five to forty. I am also mutlti-orgasmic (it is a myth that only women can have multiple orgasms), averaging four or five orgasm from one ejaculation and double that on a good night. And I'm not even in peak health! I smoke and I could stand to loose a few pounds. So I find it rather insulting that vegans think they're getting better sex than me. The notion of "upping" things even more is actually a little bit frightening. There have been moments when I have come so hard and long that I though I was going to give myself a fucking stroke! 
RE: Damn good thing I'm not Vegan - 
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