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Guns in Elementary Schools - 1/31/2012 12:38:12 AM   
joether


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quote:

From the Source


I guess the only arguement I could take seriously to allowing guns in public schools, is the idea to prevent the next Columbine (spelling?) from taking place. Even then there is not guarantee that one employee suddenly has a nervous breakdown and takes it out on the kids in the classroom. It only has to happen once to be a real tragedy for many families. Likewise, I really do think the gun manufactures in this country are trying to reduce regulations by buying off our elected officals. We'd all like to think the NRA represents us, the US citizens; but unfortunately, they seem to do the industry's bidding as well. They (the NRA) does not seem to take EVERY case involving firearms usage, but only in those cases that could allow more firearms to be sold in the USA to an even greater group of people. That, in my opinion, undermines its overall credibility.

I just dont see the positives of allowing 'non law enforcement' adults being allowed to carry firearms into public schools outweighing the negatives. Sadly I believe the number of negative occurances of a firearms usage would quickly erase the good reasons.

Note: I have no problem with the NRA's teaching of firearm safety and usage classes. From what I've seen, the instructors explain the laws and rules in play, how to use a firearm along with storing and maintence.

So the question I have is: Should US Citizens be allowed to be on school grounds with a firearm, assuming they are 'non law enforcement' (i.e., Teachers, parents, janitors, etc)?
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RE: Guns in Elementary Schools - 1/31/2012 5:30:20 AM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

From the Source


I guess the only arguement I could take seriously to allowing guns in public schools, is the idea to prevent the next Columbine (spelling?) from taking place. Even then there is not guarantee that one employee suddenly has a nervous breakdown and takes it out on the kids in the classroom. It only has to happen once to be a real tragedy for many families. Likewise, I really do think the gun manufactures in this country are trying to reduce regulations by buying off our elected officals. We'd all like to think the NRA represents us, the US citizens; but unfortunately, they seem to do the industry's bidding as well. They (the NRA) does not seem to take EVERY case involving firearms usage, but only in those cases that could allow more firearms to be sold in the USA to an even greater group of people. That, in my opinion, undermines its overall credibility.

I just dont see the positives of allowing 'non law enforcement' adults being allowed to carry firearms into public schools outweighing the negatives. Sadly I believe the number of negative occurances of a firearms usage would quickly erase the good reasons.

Note: I have no problem with the NRA's teaching of firearm safety and usage classes. From what I've seen, the instructors explain the laws and rules in play, how to use a firearm along with storing and maintence.

So the question I have is: Should US Citizens be allowed to be on school grounds with a firearm, assuming they are 'non law enforcement' (i.e., Teachers, parents, janitors, etc)?


1. Your link leads nowhere.

2.
quote:

Even then there is not guarantee that one employee suddenly has a nervous breakdown and takes it out on the kids in the classroom.

And what is to stop them from doing this now, with school's being a "gun-free-zone"? Schools are a perfect target for mass free-fire-zones because there is NO ONE else with a gun.

3.
quote:

That, in my opinion, undermines its overall credibility

Why? You are essentially holding the NRA to a higher standard than anyone else. "Hey! If they say that will answer all letters, we will send them 300,000 and then point out their hypocrisy when they don't answer them all!" Why shouldn't the NRA have the freedom to pick and choose which cases they support? Why is it wrong for them to choose cases that are helpful to its cause? It seems rather stupid to choose cases that would be detrimental to the organization.

4.
quote:

Should US Citizens be allowed to be on school grounds with a firearm, assuming they are 'non law enforcement' (i.e., Teachers, parents, janitors, etc)?

Yes. If nothing else, it would lower the number of mass shootings that take place. You really should check out the stats on that.

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RE: Guns in Elementary Schools - 1/31/2012 6:29:37 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
4.
quote:

Should US Citizens be allowed to be on school grounds with a firearm, assuming they are 'non law enforcement' (i.e., Teachers, parents, janitors, etc)?

Yes. If nothing else, it would lower the number of mass shootings that take place. You really should check out the stats on that.

No. The odds against a single poorly or untrained civilian stopping someone who is shooting others at random is very low. More than likely the armed student/teacher would simply increase the number of innocents shot and then get shot himself when the LEO's sweep the site.

(in reply to Aylee)
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RE: Guns in Elementary Schools - 1/31/2012 6:33:26 AM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
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Status: offline 		Why do anti-gunners consistently ignore the fact that anti-gun laws only disarm the law-abiding?

quote:

They (the NRA) does not seem to take EVERY case involving firearms usage, but only in those cases that could allow more firearms to be sold in the USA to an even greater group of people. That, in my opinion, undermines its overall credibility.


That's funny- the NRA "lost credibility" with you. What a joke.
Their entire purpose is to protect the sale of firearms to every free person who desires them.
"The great object is that every man be armed and everyone who is able may have a gun" - Patrick Henry

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ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

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RE: Guns in Elementary Schools - 1/31/2012 7:14:03 AM   
Zonie63


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Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
So the question I have is: Should US Citizens be allowed to be on school grounds with a firearm, assuming they are 'non law enforcement' (i.e., Teachers, parents, janitors, etc)?


I think it depends. Do law enforcement agencies have the manpower to station officers at every school site? If not, then how long would it take for the cops to respond to a school situation if there's some mad shooter?

I'm also a bit uncomfortable with your distinction between "law enforcement" and "non law enforcement." I think it creates a perception of helplessness among the citizenry, something that's gone on for far too long in this country.


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RE: Guns in Elementary Schools - 1/31/2012 7:14:37 AM   
Winterapple


Posts: 1343
Joined: 8/19/2011
Status: offline 		Requiring the lunchroom ladies to pack heat is the obvious solution. Lives will be saved.
Mystery meat will be eaten.

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RE: Guns in Elementary Schools - 1/31/2012 7:15:01 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		when we were in gradeschool, we used to bring guns in for show-and-tell.

the world is a different place.

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RE: Guns in Elementary Schools - 1/31/2012 7:16:56 AM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Winterapple

Requiring the lunchroom ladies to pack heat is the obvious solution. Lives will be saved.
Mystery meat will be eaten.


Gimme another plate of sloppy joes, or tonight you sleep with the fishes there, Hazel....(that would have been me, I love them school sloppy joes).

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: Guns in Elementary Schools - 1/31/2012 7:26:34 AM   
JstAnotherSub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Winterapple

Requiring the lunchroom ladies to pack heat is the obvious solution. Lives will be saved.
Mystery meat will be eaten.
We grouchylunchladies have the big sharp knives too!


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yep

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RE: Guns in Elementary Schools - 1/31/2012 7:39:14 AM   
subrob1967


Posts: 4591
Joined: 9/13/2004
Status: offline 		I hope you guys realize that if I respond to a school shooting on the job, I do NOT have to place my life in jeopardy to save the students, right? I can sit outside, wait for backup, control the perimeter, and let the shooter continue to shoot.

I have absolutely zero problem with arming teachers, administrators, or the parents visiting the campus.


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RE: Guns in Elementary Schools - 1/31/2012 7:51:18 AM   
orimotis69


Posts: 69
Joined: 10/21/2011
Status: offline 		Come on guys it's so obvious! Once all those little 1st graders are packing heat they'll be able to take their little guns from their backpacks and take down the shooter if he tries to go into the classroom.

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RE: Guns in Elementary Schools - 1/31/2012 8:34:29 AM   
Edwynn


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~FR~


Yeah, that's the ticket. Virtually require or 'strongly recommend' various drugs for many kids (which schools often do), and being that those same drugs are implicated in every student shooting thus far, now have everybody packing to deal with that result.

Home schooling keeps looking better and better.


PS

Just so we are aware, the 'religious objectors' and bible teaching parents (the only ones ever reported on by the media) make up a small percentage of the home schooling community, both historically and currently.





< Message edited by Edwynn -- 1/31/2012 8:48:51 AM >

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RE: Guns in Elementary Schools - 1/31/2012 9:01:04 AM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
quote:

From the Source

1. Your link leads nowhere.


Link works for me just fine.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
Even then there is not guarantee that one employee suddenly has a nervous breakdown and takes it out on the kids in the classroom.

And what is to stop them from doing this now, with school's being a "gun-free-zone"? Schools are a perfect target for mass free-fire-zones because there is NO ONE else with a gun.


If what you said was true, shouldnt we be experiencing one 'Columbine' massacre after another every few weeks? That is the logical conclusion of your arguement. Most people with a brains enough to plan an assault are also aware of the possible forces that would work against them. Last week, I read of two high school students (Utah?) that were planning to blow up a school assembly and then run away, steal a single engine plane and fly to a non-extradition country using the skills they learned from a computer flight simulator. They told one of their friends who then contacted the police. How would arming all the school staff with firearms have prevented a bombing?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
That, in my opinion, undermines its overall credibility

Why? You are essentially holding the NRA to a higher standard than anyone else. "Hey! If they say that will answer all letters, we will send them 300,000 and then point out their hypocrisy when they don't answer them all!" Why shouldn't the NRA have the freedom to pick and choose which cases they support? Why is it wrong for them to choose cases that are helpful to its cause? It seems rather stupid to choose cases that would be detrimental to the organization.


Actually, I hold my goverment (local, state & federal) to a higher standard than the NRA. If the NRA was taking cases that didnt advanced the gun industry but instead protected US Citizens 2nd Amendment rights, you would have a point. I'm aware that this organization has limited resources and it must choose which court cases to take. Just seems curious that the ones they take up, would also benefit the industry's profit margin.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
Should US Citizens be allowed to be on school grounds with a firearm, assuming they are 'non law enforcement' (i.e., Teachers, parents, janitors, etc)?

Yes. If nothing else, it would lower the number of mass shootings that take place. You really should check out the stats on that.


I would see it as making it MUCH easier for such shooting to take place. You eliminate one line of defense by allowing firearms to easily get onto the premises. If it was stated that just school staff could carry guns raises the stakes that such a school shooting will take place. As noted from Utah last week and Columbine years ago, the men involved had planned their assault in detail. If they knew which teachers were carrying guns, they would simply add that into the plan. The Virigina Tech shooting, Columbine and others had one specific detail: the attackers had the element of surprise. It would just generate a false sense of security.

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RE: Guns in Elementary Schools - 1/31/2012 9:22:38 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Maybe a better course of action then arming non-professionals would be to aggressively address the reasons behind these shootings.

Bring awareness to the children on the hazards of bulling and provide free mental illness evaluations, mandatory if necessary, to troubled children.

Hire mental illness professionals or provide training to school medical personnel to help pinpoint potential troubled individuals and help them before tragedy strikes.

Butch

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RE: Guns in Elementary Schools - 1/31/2012 9:33:44 AM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Maybe a better course of action then arming non-professionals would be to aggressively address the reasons behind these shootings.

Bring awareness to the children on the hazards of bulling and provide free mental illness evaluations, mandatory if necessary, to troubled children.

Hire mental illness professionals or provide training to school medical personnel to help pinpoint potential troubled individuals and help them before tragedy strikes.


That would be a much wiser direction to go in. Pre-emptive the possibility of such a shooting taking place by identifying those students suffering a range of problems and life issues. And then help those students to over come the obsticles in there way and allow them to successfully overcome said obsticles.

< Message edited by joether -- 1/31/2012 9:34:39 AM >

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RE: Guns in Elementary Schools - 2/1/2012 2:06:24 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		What's this ..."allowed" crap?
"Allowed" by who?
Someone sitting at a desk is going to try to keep you from excercising one of you're rights?
If so they shouldn't be sitting at that desk, should they?
I thought we were prosecuting people for denying others their rights?
The Southern Democrats did that to black people for what, a hundred years?

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 2/1/2012 2:14:38 AM >

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RE: Guns in Elementary Schools - 2/1/2012 12:24:20 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

I hope you guys realize that if I respond to a school shooting on the job, I do NOT have to place my life in jeopardy to save the students, right? I can sit outside, wait for backup, control the perimeter, and let the shooter continue to shoot.

I have absolutely zero problem with arming teachers, administrators, or the parents visiting the campus.


I always figured you for a "by the book" sort of guy......hey,you always need someone to direct the real men to go,right ?

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If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: Guns in Elementary Schools - 2/1/2012 1:46:39 PM   
Edwynn


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Joined: 10/26/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

Yes. If nothing else, it would lower the number of mass shootings that take place. You really should check out the stats on that.




That's interesting. While on the stats thing, I wonder if we should limit ourselves to that and not check further on the relation between prescription drugs and lower/higher stats on school shooters.

But there we have it in this modern world. Whatever problems arise from the fully invested corporate indoctrination we euphemistically refer to as 'education'; give the kids drugs. Whatever disaster happens as result of that (small percentage but significant outcome), give the teachers guns to 'solve' the numerous preceding problems caused by preceding 'solutions' that caused more problems ...


OK, is it just me, or is there a pattern here? Mistaking symptom itself as cause, thereby completely missing fundamental understanding , all the focus being on 'solution' to such extent as to miss out on prevention, etc. ...

Have we ever been at this juncture before? Anybody got a history book?




< Message edited by Edwynn -- 2/1/2012 1:59:06 PM >

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RE: Guns in Elementary Schools - 2/1/2012 1:57:51 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		This is what is scary....one needs to actually mount a well thought out argument to what,on the face of it,is an asinine idea.
This is bizzaro world,it really is....I mean I need to go point counter-point to a notion as ridiculous as allowing guns into elementary school.
Fucking nuts

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: Guns in Elementary Schools - 2/1/2012 2:07:35 PM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

I just dont see the positives of allowing 'non law enforcement' adults being allowed to carry firearms into public schools outweighing the negatives. Sadly I believe the number of negative occurances of a firearms usage would quickly erase the good reasons.

So the question I have is: Should US Citizens be allowed to be on school grounds with a firearm, assuming they are 'non law enforcement' (i.e., Teachers, parents, janitors, etc)?


Enlarge this. Has concealed carry caused all the blood in the streets that its opponents said would happen? Answer, no! Thus your (emotional?) belief that "the number of negative occurances of a firearms usage would quickly erase the good reasons" is unfounded.







(in reply to joether)
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