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RE: The fine line between 'forced' and 'FORCED' - 1/14/2012 12:19:41 AM   
BootyBoy


Posts: 108
Joined: 7/29/2008
Status: offline 		I'd say that there is one word only that prevents what it is we do from being weird, scary, dangerous, and illegal, and that word is CONSENT.

I don't like the term, "pushing limits" nearly as much as I prefer, "renegotiating limits." Pushing limits too often comes after a sub is naked, restrained, and with a ball gag in their mouths,--that is not the time to "push" a limit because at that point, the sub is incapable of saying no. Or, in other words, it just became glaringly NON-CONSENSUAL. If I am going to be "pushed" I want it to happen during pre-play negotiation, not when I am conveniently unable to express my desires.

As for force, and FORCE, it really shouldn't be an issue, because you either believe in safe, sane, and consensual, or you don't. There is no point in having limits, if the expectation is that they can be arbitrarily eroded whenever a dominant is into something that a sub is not. A "good Dominant" keeps their word--always and every time.

I understand that some subs like the idea of being "forced" to do things, but it is not a good idea. Limits and negotiation are the only things that stand between play and abuse. Blurring those lines, for the sake of a kink is always done at the sub's peril.

(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: The fine line between 'forced' and 'FORCED' - 1/14/2012 6:02:51 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		And I think there is a huge gray area inbetween consent and not.

Which is why, I think that building some sort of relationship and communicating is so hugely important.

And so, as I was thinking as I was moving my computer, coffee and grabbing a banana to eat....so I could actually sit down and write.......how does all of this differ in different types of relationships.

I am thinking especially the difference between a D/s, M/s, and a T/b. I would think, that there would be a lot more wanting to trust all aspects of a person before entering a M/s relationship. Differently with a D/s as most submissive persons still want to retain more autonomy. And yet even different with a T/b, yet in my mind, a bigger landmine there. Which might explain why those that regularly top, feel that their reputation is even more vital.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to BootyBoy)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: The fine line between 'forced' and 'FORCED' - 1/14/2012 6:41:11 AM   
BootyBoy


Posts: 108
Joined: 7/29/2008
Status: offline 		LaTigresse, I hear what you're saying about gray are, and my only argument would be that it at least needs to be narrowed, in many cases. once we get beyond limits, negotiations, and safe words, there is little else to stop abuse from happening. There is also a huge gray area as to when sufficient trust has been established to allow a Dominant to start crossing ones limit lines. I probably should have addressed "soft limits" above. To me soft limits are things a sub has said "yes" to, but slowly.

But I do agree that once I trust a Top, there is more relaxed negotiation, and I'm more ready to try new thing (with safe word ready) because they have proved that they know how to stop if I need them to stop,and to value my safety over their kink. And of course a Top who has a longstanding reputation for integrity is the gold standard.

(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: The fine line between 'forced' and 'FORCED' - 1/14/2012 6:46:11 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		Yeah, I think you are getting where I am going.

Once a relationship is well established, as others have also said......there is trust and a much deeper 'knowing' one another. The slave or submissive will likely accept more FORCE as force.

I can imagine however, that an unknown Top, is going to get less opportunity to gain that trust and depth of communication simple because of the type of relationship they have and the probability of less time together. Therefor a more public positive reputation will be of more value.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to BootyBoy)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: The fine line between 'forced' and 'FORCED' - 1/14/2012 7:58:25 AM   
HisPet21


Posts: 395
Status: offline
quote:

And I think there is a huge gray area inbetween consent and not.


I'm really not sure that I'd agree. I don't think the line between FORCE and force is a thin one. Either I am okay with being pushed, or I am not. Either you're working with a soft or a hard limit. There is no time or place when or where my hard limits will soften and become malleable. That being said, I can see how the different perspectives of a sub and a dom may come into play here.

For me, as a sub, I feel that the distinction between FORCE and force is very defined. I know what I am willing to try and what I am not willing to try, so, in my mind, it's an easy distinction to make.

It's a little more complicated for my dom. As well as he knows me, he still depends upon me to tell him, very clearly, what my hard and soft limits are. And it's probably not always easy to understand what I am trying to convey. Because some "soft limits" might be borderline "hard limits," and I need to convey this so that he is extra careful in dealing with them. In my mind, I may know exactly how far he can safely go, and I may do my best to convey that, but for him it may feel like a "grey" area. So, he may have some anxieties about going there.

That's why communication and trust are so important. A dominant needs to trust that a sub will tell him/her what said sub's specific soft and hard limits are and to explain, in as much detail as possible, which soft limits are the softest and which are the hardest. The sub has to be able to trust that the dom will, to the bets of his/her ability, adhere to said limits. And the pair need to understand each others' psyches in order for the harder soft limits to be safely pushed.

(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: The fine line between 'forced' and 'FORCED' - 1/14/2012 8:21:27 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		I think that we are in agreement.....just defining the same thing differently.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to HisPet21)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: The fine line between 'forced' and 'FORCED' - 1/14/2012 9:51:45 AM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

I'd say that there is one word only that prevents what it is we do from being weird, scary, dangerous, and illegal, and that word is CONSENT.



I cannot agree that 'consent' is the be all and end all of FORCE vs force. My first m/s experience was consensual, only because I thought I had to consent. As Des pointed out, it was coerced consent. When the danger to myself became too great, I withdrew my consent and walked away.

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to BootyBoy)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: The fine line between 'forced' and 'FORCED' - 1/14/2012 1:50:58 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		There have been things he wanted, that I was just nervous about and knew I couldn't willingly get into that physical position. So I asked him to tie me up and not give me a choice. That was force PLAY because I had asked him to do that so I could experience it. But it's obviously not coercion because we discussed how I could do this the easiest. Honestly, I think he was shocked when I told him this as he wasn't expecting it.

But being loaned out, having a three way etc are things which he would have to coerce me to accomplish and both the acts themselves as well as the coercion would ruin the relationship, destroying all intimacy and trust. That would be true force with no play involved.


_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to catize)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: The fine line between 'forced' and 'FORCED' - 1/14/2012 2:42:18 PM   
Snort


Posts: 132
Joined: 5/15/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaverachel2Him

There is a difference between (as we know) consent, non consent and consensual nonconsent (CNC).



I have changed a lot since my yout... as have my partners. I like to think of it as maturity, but probably not.

There was a time I knew nothing of safe words, nothing of limits, and I knew my partner intuitively without specific communication. Perhaps I'm lucky, but I never had a problem. I knew a couple of women who had not yet come to grips with being kinky - for them, it was dirty and guilty and damnably hot. They wanted to be FORCED so they need not be responsible for the experience. Sure, some of it was force, but some was definitely FORCE: yes, you really are THAT kind of girl, or yes, you really would submit to this "disgusting" act as proof that you are mine. But what was FORCE then is doubtless reg'lar D/s relationship stuff for them now. We grow and come up against real limits that are outside of our specific kink.

Nowadays, I don't move beyond consensual nonconsent, but that is because I look for a mature partner who has already gone through the frenzy stage and knows where the lines need to be drawn. Using force is intense and expands some limits over time, but at this point FORCE would jeopardize the relationship. But back in my ancient history, it was the way to GROW the relationship.


_____________________________

Not a GT sock. Really.

(in reply to slaverachel2Him)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: The fine line between 'forced' and 'FORCED' - 1/14/2012 2:51:55 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		I thinking the forcing dynamic has its biggest distinction upon the consequence of the actions that are forced. There is a huge difference of an action where the actions forced result in devalue or is destructive to the person forced as compared to act ins that enhance or even empower the peson forced. A buzz word out there is 'intervention'. It seems clear to me that these are situations of forced actions on to a person. But the motivation and intent to the well being of the person being forced is or the benefit of the person. I don't see it a lot of different for my kids when I force them to eat a healthy supper etc etc etc. I am some what surprised there is so much contravesy with this issue. It really seems rather simple to me.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: The fine line between 'forced' and 'FORCED' - 1/14/2012 2:57:51 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		Oh ohohhhhh, a whole different point of view thank you!

I love when someone takes an issue and turns the lazy suzan and shows a different point of view.

Thank you KoM!

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: The fine line between 'forced' and 'FORCED' - 1/14/2012 4:47:15 PM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

I thinking the forcing dynamic has its biggest distinction upon the consequence of the actions that are forced.
There is a huge difference of an action where the actions forced result in devalue or is destructive to the person forced as compared to act ins that enhance or even empower the peson forced. A buzz word out there is 'intervention'. It seems clear to me that these are situations of forced actions on to a person.
But the motivation and intent to the well being of the person being forced is or the benefit of the person. I don't see it a lot of different for my kids when I force them to eat a healthy supper etc etc etc. I am some what surprised there is so much contravesy with this issue. It really seems rather simple to me.


This is the defining aspect, for me. And even though I'm going through a rather major change as a *person in an M/s relationship*, that part doesn't change. It has to be for OUR benefit. Both of us.

I've always been forced to do all sorts of things, mainly because I don't have a nice, natural submissive nature. The *force* is in keeping with what I chose. I've always fully understood that in our relationship I HAVE to comply, no matter what mood I'm in, no matter whether I *feel* like it or not. This meets BOTH of our expectations of an M/s relationship, and always has. None of it has caused resentment or distress and has kept our steady rudder for many years. We've been incredibly blessed and happy for years.

Lately I've reached a confident place that we BOTH looked forward to..... but which has wobbled our nice, secure M/s place.  For the very reasons that KnightofMists mentioned, M hasn't *forced*. He has to be sure it's not * just because* It HAS to be because I want and accept it; not in *the moment*, but as an overall concept.

The fact that he has given me scope to work out my place again, from a different platform, after such a long time of content stability, has given me a fresh perspective on him too.

SO, *force* when force is right. But only YOU can know when it is the right and best thing to do.

agirl










_____________________________

See how easy it can be?

(in reply to KnightofMists)
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RE: The fine line between 'forced' and 'FORCED' - 1/14/2012 9:20:42 PM   
RaspberryLemon


Posts: 422
Joined: 7/18/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

I thinking the forcing dynamic has its biggest distinction upon the consequence of the actions that are forced. There is a huge difference of an action where the actions forced result in devalue or is destructive to the person forced as compared to act ins that enhance or even empower the peson forced. A buzz word out there is 'intervention'. It seems clear to me that these are situations of forced actions on to a person. But the motivation and intent to the well being of the person being forced is or the benefit of the person. I don't see it a lot of different for my kids when I force them to eat a healthy supper etc etc etc. I am some what surprised there is so much contravesy with this issue. It really seems rather simple to me.

That's an interesting way to put it, and when it comes down to it, how it works for my Master and me. He is within his rights to "force" anything on me as long as it isn't destructive or damaging to me/him/us. If his intent and the outcome (and I trust he knows me well enough to know what the outcome will be) are constructive and/or beneficial to me/him/us, it's all good in the end and it only helps us grow. As I mentioned in my previous post, this is very reliant on him knowing me and my psych to the extent that he does, him knowing how to handle me, and my complete trust in him that his decisions and orders are good ones that will not damage us.

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: The fine line between 'forced' and 'FORCED' - 1/15/2012 5:59:26 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		Thank you to all for contributing. I knew there was a useful nugget in the initial posts I copied and pasted, that sparked an interest in creating a thread.

I also think there were and are, two different aspects which have been discussed perfectly. BDSM/kink/forcing just for fun and relationship/life stuff. Each with their own land mines and rewards.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to RaspberryLemon)
Profile   Post #: 34
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