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RE: Patriotic Millionaires' Message to Congress "T... - 12/9/2011 10:54:09 PM   
InvisibleBlack


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Whether or not the government is "corrupt" or the extent of the corruption - you will still have to fund it as even a corrupt government is better than no government unless we're talking about levels of corruption so profound that social order has entirely collapsed. I would argue that the first step is to determine what the ideal effective levels of taxation are and then shape your government to operate within that amount of revenue.

Currently we seem to be wasting a fair amount of energy and time debating the tax rates for people with extremely high incomes. This is a complete waste of energy because a) that group does not consist of static individuals but is mostly comprised of people who make a massive amount of money for a single year (lottery winners, people selling estates, etc. etc.) and then fall out of the bracket and the overall numbe of such people is actually very small. Arguing about the marginal tax rates for a tiny sliver of the tax base (i.e. people with incomes of over $1 million or whatever) makes for good politcal rhetoric but is pointless from a tax policy perspective. The amount of tax revenue involved, relative to the overall tax pool, is tiny. Beyond this, any argument involving nominal tax rates is, at best, pointless and, at worst, deceptive. No one (anywhere in the world) pays the nominal tax rate. Exemptions, deductions, and the like result in distortions to the tax rate. The only useful statistics to discuss is the effective tax rate.

I will use these numbers: http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=456 - although equivalent statistics can be found in other locations.

Basically, in the past thirty years, the highest rate the top 20% have paid is 28% in 2000 and the lowest rate is 23.8% in 1986. In 2007 (the last year with good data) the rate was 25.1%. This is probably about right. Bear in mind that 2000 was the height of the dot.com bubble. I do not believe under any circumstances no matter what gyrations in tax policy you perform, you can jack tax revenues up to dot.com bubble levels today. Could you, in theory, potentially force rates up a percentage point higher? Probably. Is this going to "save the economy"? No. Will it create jobs? No. Will it "balance the budget"? No.

From a policy standpoint I think the nation as a whole would be better served by simply making an announcement that there will no changes of any kind to income tax rates for the next two years (which would create stability and certainty) than an ongoing brawl over tax rates which leaves those with money to invest or business ideas to pursue with a situation where they have no clue what might happen next month, let alone next year.

The area where serious scrutiny is needed and where effective changes could be made which would not only have a significant change in tax revenues but would also assist in rectifying economic imbalances is in the area of capital gains taxes. Our current system encourages short-term speculation at the expense of long term investment. By keeping the capital gains rate far below the income tax rate and with interest rates so low, it almost forces people to push their money into equities and avoid any form of investment that would result in "income". My own solution would be to impose a capital-tax with time-based brackets - i.e. any capital gain realized in less than a year would be taxed at an extremely high rate (say 50%), any capital gain between 1 and 3 years at a lower rate (say 25%) and any capital gain realized in longer than 3 years would not be taxed at all. This would effectively penalize short-term speculation, high-speed trading, and the like and massively reward investment in equipment or development of assets (i.e. infrastructure spending).

Of course, Wall Street would hate this no end and Goldman Sachs would probably go to war to prevent this - but that's part of the point. 

Back on topic - I saw a survey from Forbes a month ago - 99% of all millionaires surveyed do not want to pay more taxes. The fact that there are one or two who do and are willing to say so is about as useful as finding five people in America who want believe the Earth is flat. A few anecdotal points do not make for a valid model.

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RE: Patriotic Millionaires' Message to Congress "T... - 12/9/2011 11:12:29 PM   
tweakabelle


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Very revealing article tazzy!

So it appears that the hordes of small business owners negatively affected by the "millionaires' surtax"' are harder to find than a winning Lotto ticket. The media ... despite days of trying .... was unable to find a single one prepared to go on the record. And when it did eventually speak to business people who were on top of the issue, they stated that the surtax was pretty irrelevant to their plans to hire....

So much for the argument, constantly advanced by the Right, that higher taxes on the rich have negative consequences for jobs..........

Please tell me if I've got this wrong: thanks to the Right, the 99% are going miss out on tax relief because the Right is trying to protect the interests of 'millionaires' that no one can find and, for all we know, could very well be non-existent .......

I suppose I shouldn't be too surprised. The Right is just doing its traditional job, the same job it has always done everywhere. Putting the interests of million- and billion-aires over that of ordinary people has always been at the top of the Right's agenda.

Some cynics have gone so far as to suggest that putting the interests of million- and billion-aires over that of ordinary people, or if you prefer, the 1% in front of the 99%, has always been the Right's raison d'etre.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 12/9/2011 11:19:26 PM >


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RE: Patriotic Millionaires' Message to Congress "T... - 12/10/2011 8:57:18 AM   
tazzygirl


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Well, tweak, if you consider that those in control of making those laws have a vested interest in protecting the class they are either a part of... or hope to become a part of... it makes sense.

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RE: Patriotic Millionaires' Message to Congress "T... - 12/10/2011 1:34:03 PM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

FR...

If Millionaires and Billionaires feel they are NOT paying enough taxes... somebody explain to me WHY, they don't just cut a check to the Federal Government to make up for it?

Why not lead by example?




Spot on. Let's keep that ball rolling then, shall we?

If some people feel that the top 1% of individual earners, and the oil industry and financial industry and agro-chem and pharma industries deserve more tax dollars (as they are benefiting from in fabulous fashion for many decades now), why don't these same people mail a check to Exxon and Koch Bros. and Monsanto and Goldman Sachs and AIG, etc.?

Indeed, why not lead by example?


It would certainly save the rest of us a bundle, in so many ways.






< Message edited by Edwynn -- 12/10/2011 1:37:53 PM >

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RE: Patriotic Millionaires' Message to Congress "T... - 12/10/2011 9:04:35 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Well, tweak, if you consider that those in control of making those laws have a vested interest in protecting the class they are either a part of... or hope to become a part of... it makes sense.

Indeedies! That sounds like something that is so sensible that we ought never ever ever under any circumstances forget about it!

When it comes to money "Who Gains?" has always struck me as the most perceptive question to ask. It certainly gives the most informative and illuminating answers!

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 12/10/2011 9:07:50 PM >


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RE: Patriotic Millionaires' Message to Congress "T... - 12/11/2011 5:06:37 AM   
Fellow


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quote:

I'm not really following you here. You have a whole manifesto here; pick one thing and argue it out.

I was just interested in general psychology and economic ideology of these millionaires making this announcement. They do perpetuate the view that the US economy is structurally sound, and tweaking tax rates a little would solve "temporary" problems. It is an illusion, it would not, as also shown by the other posts (see InvisibleBlack). The millionaires certainly (at least intuitively) understand their own wealth is in danger, and they are willing to give a little back. My recommendation for the millionaires was to spend their wealth directly by changing the structure of the economy rather than giving it to the corrupt government (that is set up to protect status quo). Otherwise, their action is just a political statement knowing in advance nothing fundamental really happens. President Obama and the Democrats frequently come out with similar talk. So, obviously we are looking at Democrat supporters. Ironically, Obama extended Bush tax cuts. This shows the hypocrisy and deception these elites are involved with.

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