RE: HIV Discrimination (Full Version)

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tazzygirl -> RE: HIV Discrimination (12/7/2011 8:50:46 AM)

quote:

His chances of transmitting the virus while riding the bus are very low


Never seen a bus accident? And I wasnt even referring to a school bus.

quote:

they're low when simply walking down the street unless he coughs blood


Fights, car accidents, falling down and scraping knees

quote:

They're high if he plays a contact sport like football or basketball, or lives under the same roof with 11 other children


He plays sports already.

So, why would the chances increase if he lives under the same roof with other children?




WebWanderer -> RE: HIV Discrimination (12/7/2011 8:53:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: searching4mysir
The question then becomes: does he have a "right" to go to a private boarding school?


Yes, he has the right to go to a private boarding school. No, he has no right to expose others to the virus. If the school in question can keep him properly guarded and/or isolated 24/7, he can go. If not, he can't.

Or, to put it in other words: the First Amendment gives me the right to express myself. If, for some unfathomable reason, i choose to express myself by swinging my fists, that is my right. However, my right to swing my fists ends where another person's nose begins. Unless that person is wearing a perfect nose protector, or actually volunteers to be punched in the nose, i have no right to exercise my peculiar brand of fist-swinging freedom.




JanahX -> RE: HIV Discrimination (12/7/2011 8:55:42 AM)

The reaction from that school is so 1980's.

I wouldnt be surprised if the kid is admitted that they require bio-safty suits for their school uniforms.




WebWanderer -> RE: HIV Discrimination (12/7/2011 8:58:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Never seen a bus accident? And I wasnt even referring to a school bus.

Bus accidents are rare. Violence among kids is frequent. Please read my post again. i said everything has a certain degree of risk - some activities are riskier than others. Living with an HIV-positive person 24/7 is a lot riskier than sitting next to him on a bus.
quote:

Fights, car accidents, falling down and scraping knees

See above.
quote:

He plays sports already.

The article you had quoted in the original post made no mention of that.
quote:

So, why would the chances increase if he lives under the same roof with other children?

See post #12.




searching4mysir -> RE: HIV Discrimination (12/7/2011 9:08:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WebWanderer


Yes, he has the right to go to a private boarding school.


See, here is where we disagree. I don't believe anyone has a right to a private school education. Private boarding school is a privilege, not a right.

Yes, he has a right to an education, but a public school one. This school is not a public school.




tazzygirl -> RE: HIV Discrimination (12/7/2011 9:12:55 AM)

quote:

Bus accidents are rare. Violence among kids is frequent. Please read my post again. i said everything has a certain degree of risk - some activities are riskier than others. Living with an HIV-positive person 24/7 is a lot riskier than sitting next to him on a bus.


Rare? They dont have bus accidents in Vegas? In Pittsburgh, if there isnt at least one a week, its been a good week for the Port Authority. Its rare a month goes by that we dont hear about someone being hit by a bus here.

When was the last time you heard about a child getting aids from another child via contact sports?

quote:

The article you had quoted in the original post made no mention of that.


The subsequent artilce I posted for tweak did.




WebWanderer -> RE: HIV Discrimination (12/7/2011 9:13:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: searching4mysir
Private boarding school is a privilege, not a right.

That's true as well. :) Rights work both ways - just as he has the right to go to a boarding school, the boarding school has the right not to accept him, ergo the lawsuit.




tazzygirl -> RE: HIV Discrimination (12/7/2011 9:14:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: searching4mysir


quote:

ORIGINAL: WebWanderer


Yes, he has the right to go to a private boarding school.


See, here is where we disagree. I don't believe anyone has a right to a private school education. Private boarding school is a privilege, not a right.

Yes, he has a right to an education, but a public school one. This school is not a public school.


Yet, according to their web site, the school began as only white male. Subsequent court rulings forced the school to open to minority males, then females.

It will be interesting to see how the ADA Law is used in this case.




tazzygirl -> RE: HIV Discrimination (12/7/2011 9:17:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JanahX

The reaction from that school is so 1980's.

I wouldnt be surprised if the kid is admitted that they require bio-safty suits for their school uniforms.



I agree... its rather archaic.




WebWanderer -> RE: HIV Discrimination (12/7/2011 9:18:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Rare? They dont have bus accidents in Vegas? In Pittsburgh, if there isnt at least one a week, its been a good week for the Port Authority. Its rare a month goes by that we dont hear about someone being hit by a bus here.

Read my post again... Different degrees of risk. Anything is risky: getting out of your bathtub, riding a bus, riding an elevator - risk is everywhere, it's only the degree of risk that matters. Bus accidents happen, but they happen a lot less frequently than fights between children that end up in bloody noses. Nobody ever reports about Billy giving Bobby a bloody nose on 11-o'clock news simply because it's not newsworthy. Just because it doesn't get reported, however, doesn't mean it never takes place. It does, always, everywhere.

But i suspect you already knew this... Are you simply playing the devil's advocate and trying to make the reality fit your beliefs on this matter?




searching4mysir -> RE: HIV Discrimination (12/7/2011 9:21:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: searching4mysir


quote:

ORIGINAL: WebWanderer


Yes, he has the right to go to a private boarding school.


See, here is where we disagree. I don't believe anyone has a right to a private school education. Private boarding school is a privilege, not a right.

Yes, he has a right to an education, but a public school one. This school is not a public school.


Yet, according to their web site, the school began as only white male. Subsequent court rulings forced the school to open to minority males, then females.

It will be interesting to see how the ADA Law is used in this case.


Sex and race are protected classes. I wasn't aware that having a chronic health condition is as well.

Personally, I wouldn't want to go to a school that didn't want me there.




tazzygirl -> RE: HIV Discrimination (12/7/2011 9:30:37 AM)

quote:

But i suspect you already knew this... Are you simply playing the devil's advocate and trying to make the reality fit your beliefs on this matter?


Im posting from a medical perspective and from a parent's perspective.

III. Public Accommodations

1. Q: What is a public accommodation?

A: A public accommodation is a private entity that owns,
operates, leases, or leases to a place of public accommodation.
Places of public accommodation include a wide range of entities,
such as restaurants, hotels, theaters, doctors offices,
dentists offices, hospitals, retail stores, health clubs,
museums, libraries, private schools, and day care centers.
Private clubs and places run by religious organizations are not
considered places of public accommodation.


2. Q: What constitutes discrimination?

- A day care center that categorically refused admission to
HIV-positive children or the children of HIV-positive mothers.

7. Q: Can a public accommodation exclude a person with
HIV/AIDS because that person allegedly poses a direct threat to
the health and safety of others?

A: In almost every instance, the answer to this question is
no. Persons with HIV/AIDS will rarely, if ever, pose a direct
threat in the public accommodations context.

A public accommodation may exclude an individual with a
disability from participation in an activity, if that
individual s participation would result in a direct threat to the
health or safety of others. "Direct threat," however, is defined
as a "significant risk to the health or safety of others" that
cannot be eliminated or reduced to an acceptable level by
reasonable modifications to the public accommodation s policies,
practices, or procedures, or by the provision of appropriate
auxiliary aids or services. The determination that a person
poses a direct threat to the health or safety of others may not
be based on generalizations or stereotypes about the effects of a
particular disability; it must be based on an individual
assessment that considers the particular activity and the actual
abilities and disabilities of the individual. The individual
assessment must be based on reasonable judgment that relies on
current medical evidence.

- A day care center s refusal to admit a child who is
HIV-positive, because of the fear that the child might bite and
might therefore transmit HIV to other children, is also a
violation. It is incorrect to assume that all young children
bite. Moreover, current medical evidence indicates that HIV is
not transmitted by saliva. Even if an HIV-positive child were to
bite another child, the only bodily fluid that would be
transmitted from the infected child to the non-infected child
would be saliva.


http://www.ada.gov/pubs/hivqanda.txt

As I said, it should be interesting to see which way this goes.




tazzygirl -> RE: HIV Discrimination (12/7/2011 9:32:49 AM)

quote:

Nobody ever reports about Billy giving Bobby a bloody nose on 11-o'clock news simply because it's not newsworthy. Just because it doesn't get reported, however, doesn't mean it never takes place. It does, always, everywhere.


Always?

Everywhere?

I must be blessed then because my son never received a bloody nose in school.




WebWanderer -> RE: HIV Discrimination (12/7/2011 9:40:51 AM)

Not to 100% of children, but it does happen - and a lot more often than bus accidents. Did your son go to a regular school, or did he live with 11 disadvantaged kids 24/7?




Toppingfrmbottom -> RE: HIV Discrimination (12/7/2011 9:52:29 AM)

Bookmarking to read later.




tazzygirl -> RE: HIV Discrimination (12/7/2011 9:58:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WebWanderer

Not to 100% of children, but it does happen - and a lot more often than bus accidents. Did your son go to a regular school, or did he live with 11 disadvantaged kids 24/7?


The student in question is a "disadvantaged" kid. The ADA allows for modifications. If they had said to the kid... ok.. but you cant play contact sports.. for example... then I would have agreed with the school. He was denied strictly because of his medical status.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: HIV Discrimination (12/7/2011 10:12:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: searching4mysir


quote:

ORIGINAL: WebWanderer


Yes, he has the right to go to a private boarding school.


See, here is where we disagree. I don't believe anyone has a right to a private school education. Private boarding school is a privilege, not a right.

Yes, he has a right to an education, but a public school one. This school is not a public school.


Its neither a privilege nor a right. Its a commodity like any other, and the seller has the right to restrict access to its product. Can you imagine the lawsuits should someone even be exposed to his body fluids, much less actually contract the virus? this isnt discrmination, its common sense. Something severly lacking amongst posters who think its discrimination (in the perjorative sense of the word).




littlewonder -> RE: HIV Discrimination (12/7/2011 10:55:34 AM)

I'm not quite sure why this kid would even want to attend this school. I mean from what I read his parents said so he can get a better education. From what I know of this school he's not going to get it there. Most kids there learn at a lower level than those in public schools because most of the kids there are disadvantaged, mentally incapacitated, violent, have some kind of problem which is why the parents have sent them there. The students who go there were turned away from public schools due to their problems. Milton Hershey is usually the school of last resort.

Was this boy also turned away from public schools for his problem? Are they wanting to send him there because it's their last resort?

I would think this boy could find better schools than Milton Hershey.




LafayetteLady -> RE: HIV Discrimination (12/7/2011 11:39:29 AM)

This is not simply a boarding school.  It is practically a foster care environment.  They provide "year round" housing, clothes, food and medical care. 

I read the Plaintiff's filing and it is in many ways pretty ambiguous, providing no supporting documents regarding the admissions.

They are suing for compensatory, actual and punitive damages.  One of the links had the 13 year old child saying, "I think that it was wrong to put me through emotional distress."  I don't care how high on the honor roll this kid is, at thirteen, he isn't speaking like that, so he was definately coached.

Compensatory damages would basically be their attorney fees.  There are no actual damages here that I can see.  It is a private school, which is not a "required" form of education, so if the mother paid for another private school, that was a choice.  Actual damages certainly could not include any basic housing, clothing, or medical costs for the child as they were her responsibility to begin with. 

So they have punitive damages.  Yes, they can amount to something, but as I'm sure that mother is also HIV positive, I'm sure she has had to deal with some shit from people.  Did she sue all of them or is this simply because she feels the school has "deep pockets?"

I believe that both sides have merit here.  It is pretty presumptious to ask other people to take on the full time responsibility of an HIV child.  That is what this entails.  This boy may be asymptomatic, but he still requires additional medical attention compared to the "average" student.  Realistically, that is what taking this boy on as a student would entail for the school.  So the question then becomes, would admitting this child lessen the availability of care for the other students?  I don't know the answer to that, but it is possible, foreseeable and likely that it could.

I am assuming it was a typo when you said this:

quote:


the school states the parent would not agree to the school informing others about his condition, such as house parents and others directed in his education and care... but that they would not agree to education of the other students.


Your quote looks like a typo, but on review of the school's filing it isn't.  It is wholly unreasonable in a residential setting to deny the right of caregivers the knowledge of his condition.  Even in a day school setting dealing with minor children, it is reasonable to expect staff to have knowledge of the condition so they can properly address any issues that come up.

If this child is to prevail on his motion, which includes immediate admission to the school, the court is likely to order there IS a need to know situation here, and the requirement that the staff be notified of his HIV status must be disclosed.

There is also the reality that because of this child's condition and medications and such, even without formal "notice" to the students, they could and likely will find out.  Now that student is in danger of further, real "emotional distress."  I'm certainly not saying it is right for students to pick on him for his health issues, but I am saying it is a reality of what would happen.  The people responsible for this child do not want the school to engage in HIV education for the students so they have the accurate information.  They are children and without being educated, how will they learn how HIV can and can not be transmitted?

I sympathize with this child wanting a good education, I really do.  I don't sympathize with his mother, who is the likely reason this boy has HIV in the first place.  But his health situation alone should not permit him admittance to this school.  He was turned down on a previous application.  I would be interested in the details of that application, since he had HIV then as well.

The school makes a point of saying that they have accomodated other children with disabilities.  Does this have an impact?  Maybe, but not likely.  The point really comes down to the school not having the ability to meet all the needs of this child if he were in their setting.

One thing that keeps nagging at me is if you have a child who is HIV positive, you want to be sure his medical needs are properly met, and as a parent, I would think you would want to be able to look at your child daily to watch for anything that may indicate a need to see the doctor.  A good parent knows their child well enough to make these kinds of judgements, and can see things even before their child tells them.  I would think in the case of HIV, this would be vitally important to any good parent.

Yet this mother is more than happy to send her child to a school that is at least two hours away.  They live in the Philadelphia area, and the Hersey School is out by Harrisburg, not around the block.  As a parent of a child with a chronic and potentially fatal disease, are you willing to turn over care to someone else?  Not for a few days or a couple of weeks, but essentially full time?  A parent sending their child to this school, from what I read on the school's website, is almost completely abdicating parental authority to the school.  What kind of parent is willing to do that with a child that has such special needs?

Something tells me there is more to this story than what we are seeing in the press.  Twice the child applied and twice the child was turned down.  They don't say the mother is HIV positive or even full blown AIDS, but since this boy had it from birth it isn't a huge leap to figure out she gave it to him.  He isn't a foster child, it would have been mentioned (raises pity levels), he is with his biological mother, who through her own behavior gave her child a deadly disease.  The school, by everything we have seen has tried to deal with this appropriately, but the mother (not the child) rushed to filing suit and asking for damages "to be determined by the court."  Not just for the boy, but for what she has suffered as well.  That doesn't sit well with me.




LafayetteLady -> RE: HIV Discrimination (12/7/2011 11:45:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: WebWanderer

Not to 100% of children, but it does happen - and a lot more often than bus accidents. Did your son go to a regular school, or did he live with 11 disadvantaged kids 24/7?


The student in question is a "disadvantaged" kid. The ADA allows for modifications. If they had said to the kid... ok.. but you cant play contact sports.. for example... then I would have agreed with the school. He was denied strictly because of his medical status.


Not exactly.  Part of this denial was also based on the family's refusal to allow proper notification to staff so they could properly and SAFELY care for the child.

Is this the child's desire to attend this school, or is this his mother wanting him out of the house so she can engage in more risky behavior?  That isn't stereotyping, that is a gut feeling based on the paperwork available.  Why would you not want the staff to be fully cognizant of this boy's health issues?  At the very LEAST, it would give them the opportunity to pay more attention to his physical condition.  When someone with HIV gets a cold, or any other illness that healthy people consider "minor," it has the potential (just like with a diabetic) to snowball into something much worse.  We regularly send our kids to school when they have the sniffles or a cold, but that really wouldn't be appropriate for this kid.  What is the reasoning the family thinks should be given that this kid should be on restricted activities or bedrest for such things?

It really isn't as simple as it appears on the face of things.




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