RE: Germany going green, despite the costs

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RE: Germany going green, despite the costs - 11/23/2011 7:01:11 PM

samboct

Posts: 1817
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"Someone else making a point about something I never said. I made no mention of coal, just of the "going green" costs. You also missed my earlier pint about wind turbines not always being available, such as during last years record low temps in the UK.

Our own government are trying to muddy the waters by mentioning savings made from using more effecient insulation and low energy lighting, which is next to useless."

Actually- if you're making a comparison about costs- you have to include the indirect costs of existing forms of power to get an accurate picture. If the cost of power from coal is 0.10 e/kwhr and the cost of power from wind is 0.20 e/kw/hr on the bill, then it looks pretty simple- coal power is cheaper. However, if your health care insurance goes up 100 e/yr to pay for lung/heart damage from particulates and to pay for treatment of retarded children- well, that might change the equation as to which power is really cheaper. The subsidies on renewables are easy- the subsidies on nuclear, coal and oil are a lot harder to quantify. But I'm not an economist- which means that just because something is difficult to quantify, doesn't mean that it can't be estimated. Show me an accurate economic model, and I'll show you a bridge in Brooklyn for sale, cheap.

Lighting will be quickly improving- the LEDs are beginning to become available, although their cost is still pretty stiff. They won't be a direct replacement for incandescents (nothing really will), but they'll be better than fluorescents. And OLEDs are going to look really neat when they come in (probably less than 5 years.)

The savings that gets muddy is from improved transmission and grid control- it benefits renewables more, but it will reduce power consumption.

Sam

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RE: Germany going green, despite the costs - 11/24/2011 12:15:42 AM

SpanishMatMaster

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Joined: 9/28/2011
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Politesub53: 'nuff said. Seven arguments. Start objecting, one by one, with solid arguments, or let it be. At least I do.

A word about energy sources:

Technology is the key. Technology helps to produce cheaper, and to avoid the problems of any possible source of energy, renewable or not.
When Governments impulse some energy source, with extra funding, tax releases or important contracts, they help to develop better technologies which then sink the costs. And this new technology can be used by everybody, all over the world.

So, Germany is helping us to get cheap and less problematic photo-voltaic solar panes, which will be used soon in Greece, South Africa or Mexico as a cheaper alternative as their current energy pool. The same is happening with the United Kingdom and the sea-based wind energy, Brazil and their sugar cane ethanol energy or Denmark and Spain with the ground-based wind mills. And in the long term, the European Union, Japan and the USA wink with the nuclear fusion energy.

We help each other, we open new roads, we decrease the expenses and decrease the problem, working together towards a solution to the double problem of energy production and climate change. And with the help of common sense, reason, science, Government impulse and politics, market dynamics and capitalism, we will succeed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dire Straits

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The man's too strong

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Post #: 42