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RE: Faster Than Light - Again - 11/20/2011 10:48:14 PM   
Termyn8or


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Not really Rule, just limited in scope.

We can't just shoot people for not figuring this out. I don't mean the theory, but the method of figuring out theories. The same guy who figured out GR figured out SR. We must expect the same type of errors in each theory. Herr doktor saw the universe in ways which we do not, or maybe can not. There is a rumor/fictional story based on him seeing the universe as two dimensional but folded over itself. I can concieve this but not accept it right now.

The main facet of Einsteinism with which I disagree is the [extrapolated] idea that time changes somehow when mass approaches the speed of light. In my mind, in my entire being, the two simply have nothing to do with each other and I have an idea why even a great mind like that of Einstein misconstrued evidence, which caused him to err in his theories.

Even physics is applied science bacause it builds on prior work. Pulling bricks out from the bottom is actually a good analogy for some. I never grouted those bricks. I observe what they report, and draw my own conclusions, and have little interest in theirs.

If you would like to know what I think it's like to travel at the speed of light just ask. Noone with any physics knowledge would contradict me, if someone just asks.

T^T

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RE: Faster Than Light - Again - 11/20/2011 11:24:55 PM   
blacksword404


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Right there in the article : "For more than a century, the speed of light has been locked in as the universe's ultimate speed limit. "

"Einstein did not say that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light. "

I know that but it just seems that alot of people think he did. I really don't know what they think, maybe that the universe has some kind of "ether" in it that has a sort of viscuous damping effect or what.


T^T


I've been thinking about that for a while too. Another idea I thought about was the type of shield they had in the dune books.

(In the dune books they had what was called a shield. Its purpose was to repel things moving faster than a certain speed. So a personal moving a knife slowly towards you would penetrate the shield but a bullet would not.)

What if the universe had such a shield and the speed of light was the limit? An interesting concept though.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Termyn8or)
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RE: Faster Than Light - Again - 11/21/2011 2:04:06 AM   
Termyn8or


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I don't mean to shoot you down but this is a bit too much scifi mixed in. Granted that imagination is the seed of innovation, I know that, but this is too far.

The Dune series, well I saw the first one and also almost read it. I got past halfway through but life got too busy and I never finished it.

Want to park some fi among the sci ? let's go with weirding. They needed a tool for it initially but later they could do it without. The object was a focus for the mind or what ?

If you even want to go into this let's just start a thread OK ?

T^T

< Message edited by Termyn8or -- 11/21/2011 2:07:12 AM >

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RE: Faster Than Light - Again - 11/21/2011 2:35:43 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
The main facet of Einsteinism with which I disagree is the [extrapolated] idea that time changes somehow when mass approaches the speed of light. In my mind, in my entire being, the two simply have nothing to do with each other

Quite.

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RE: Faster Than Light - Again - 11/21/2011 3:33:40 AM   
Termyn8or


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Well Rule, I don't think this is a hijack to expound on this.

Einstein was pretty damn smart, there is no doubt. there is talk of unpublished shit right near his deathbed or some shit like that but you know we just can't take that to the bank. So now I am going to describe what I think traveling at high speeds is like. After all my whole family was a bunch of street racers........ (well most of them)

We all know about the Doppler effect right ? Red shift or blue shift ? What happens to the sound of the whistle of a passing train ? We got that down right ? (I know you do but I want to make sure with everyone).

Now I am going to get down. The human eye sees about one octave of the EM spectrum as light. The rest is all radio waves, Xrays, cosmic rays or who knows. We have a red shift or blue shift with other stars which in and of itself proives that light is coming to us at greater than C, but that slips most people's minds. But let's say you were traveling at a high rate of speed. You are heading towards a star. The star puts out visible light but because you are traveling toward it so fast you can't see it because of the Doppler effect. It is all UV to you. But then some of the IR emitted from that star, you may see as light because of the Doppler effect.

Now what if you are moving at the speed of light ? You would not see the light emitted by objects in "your" "universe" would you ? Those object you move to, their light is so shifted into UV you'll never see it, and whatever you are moving from, those rays are shifted so far into IR it ain't funny and what's more if you are moving away at the speed of light, those rays will never reach you.

I've a very oversimplified concept of the old Einsteinian theory. It is probably wrong on some counts but cannot be completely wrong in one universe. What E=mc^2 means. A brainstorm no doubt, but still not complete.

Energy is mass times the speed of light squared.

My ass. That makes as much sense as multiplying carrots with kilowatts. Let's try it another way :

Mass is energy when accelerated to the speed of light [squared].

This is not a perfect interpretation, what's more very little of this has to do with the Manhattan project or any of that shit. The bombs busting up Japan DO NOT prove this theory or any fucking part of it. E=mc2 can be proven by cold fusion and a couple of other methods, when it comes to nukes the deal is if you get enough of this refined shit together in the same place too close together it blows up. Actually it doesn't.

It just prodiuces heat, which boils everything which actually drives the force of the "explosion". Yup, technically a nuke is NOT an explosive device by the conventional definition. People just don't like nukes because the heat makes the water in their bodies boil out, which kills them. The heat might also brown them nicely but there is probably noone around to eat them. And there is no sauce.

All a neutron bomb really does is to avoid displacing too much atmosphere really, so all the buildings don't fall down.

Enough for now.

T^T

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RE: Faster Than Light - Again - 11/21/2011 7:15:14 AM   
xssve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

FR

Not agreed.

I have always held the notion that C, while a definite constant, is by no means a limit.

Yes, I have always disagreed with the Einstein crowd. You all thought I was nuts, but look now ! HA HA HA HA.

Enough gloating. But I also disagree that bending of light proves that time can be bent. I disagree with alot of things but it's not worth listing them here.

T^T
C is not a constant.

Second, I'm given to understand that a neutrino has no resting mass, which is why it can travel faster than C (whatever it happens to be), without violating the mass/acceleration rule.

The theory of relativity states that it takes infinite energy to accelerate to the speed of light, energy imparts mass, thus infinite energy = infinite mass - the real poser here is how a particle can exist without resting mass, although I think there is at least one theory that it does have (infinitesimal) mass.

I think it more likely that mass is a property of motion, and what we have in every case, is motion, not mass, there is no such thing as "resting mass" even a rock only appears solid due to the motion of the electrons orbiting nuclei in the silicon atoms that comprise it, and there may be particles (if you can call that a particle) faster than a neutrino even, but we can't detect them unless they slow down enough to gain mass, i.e, somewhere in the neighborhood of C.

This would seem to violate the mass acceleration rule, but then that deals with acceleration, and these particles aren't accelerating, they're just going that fast to begin with - entropy theory argues that they should be decelerating, not accelerating, unless deceleration in one thing is leading to acceleration in another (conservation of energy) i.e., it seems more reasonable to me that a neutrino would basically eventually decay into a photon or something, but then I'm no physicist.

That would make mass a property of entropy, at infinite entropy, you have infinite mass, all motion ceases, and mass itself would also cease to exist, as it requires some motion in order to have the property of mass - at that point, the law of conservation of energy would apply, something would have to happen, it can't just all dissipate, presumably, a big bang - sudden infinite acceleration, and you have mass again, like a ripple in a pond.

Of course you have to wrap your brain around the notion that you can have motion without mass, a verb without a noun, but that's only if you're hung up on time being linear and constant.

Since time is a measure of mass and motion, w/respect to C, for anything travelling at or near C, time doesn't really exist as a linear thing, so the next big bang might really be the same big bang.

Like wow, pass that bowl bro!

< Message edited by xssve -- 11/21/2011 7:17:37 AM >

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RE: Faster Than Light - Again - 11/21/2011 8:34:08 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

quote:

What does General Relativity have to say on the subject.


You don't fucking get it do you ? Are you really that dense ?

Here it is dude :

I DO NOT AGREE WITH GENERAL RELATIVITY AND I ALSO DO NOT AGREE WITH SPECIAL RELATIVITY.

Understand ? You can quote their shit all day long and it means nothing, I already know it and I HAVE DECIDED THAT I DO NOT AGREE. DO YOU UNDERSTAND ?

I'm sorry if my twelve thousand posts haven't made this clear, but now it should be. You quote those with whom I disagree, that is completely futile.

T^T

Do you have any idea how much data exists in support of General Relativity? You simply don't get to stomp your feet and get your way. You cannot dismiss well supported science unless you have a superior alternative and you don't.

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RE: Faster Than Light - Again - 11/21/2011 8:37:40 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
The main facet of Einsteinism with which I disagree is the [extrapolated] idea that time changes somehow when mass approaches the speed of light. In my mind, in my entire being, the two simply have nothing to do with each other and I have an idea why even a great mind like that of Einstein misconstrued evidence, which caused him to err in his theories.

This facet of physics has been very well established. Although time changes even with speeds well below C.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hafele%E2%80%93Keating_experiment

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RE: Faster Than Light - Again - 11/21/2011 8:47:59 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve
Second, I'm given to understand that a neutrino has no resting mass, which is why it can travel faster than C (whatever it happens to be), without violating the mass/acceleration rule.

It was thought that neutrinos did have a rest mass before this experiment. If they have no rest mass then they can travel at C so that might turn out to be part of what is going on.

A problem with superluminal neutrinos is we know how long it took for neutrinos from the most recent observed supernova took to get to earth. If the neutrinos from that event traveled at the speed OPERA is reporting they would have arrived much sooner, my back of the napkin figure is 4 years before.

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RE: Faster Than Light - Again - 11/21/2011 9:20:00 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


2nd test affirms faster-than-light particles

Back in September, researchers at CERN reported having clocked sub-atomic particles travelling faster than the speed of light. The announcement provoked an immediate outburst of skepticism, and a search for the cause of what had to be an error. Now, a second test has found a consistent result.

For more than a century, the speed of light has been locked in as the universe's ultimate speed limit. No experiment had seen anything moving faster than light, which zips along at 186,000 miles per second.

It's not a limit that will fall easily. More tests will be necessary before these findings are accepted, and lots of physicists remain convinced that there's an error somewhere. But this affirmation of the first series of tests is a stunning result.

K.



Well, Roger Bannister proved in the 50's that someone could in fact run the 4 minute mile....and while no one "could" do it previously (in fact many scientists "proved" it couldn't be done)...indeed, he did it...and the next year......7 men qualified for the Olympics under 4 minutes.

Interestingly, Star Trek in the early 70's....(might have been the late 60's) came up with something called the "warp drive"...seemed innocuous to most of us....just a name they gave to "really fucking fast".....now it appears that you can warp space...bend it....twist it until one piece touches another...and....to go from one to the other takes just mere seconds....yet it transcends dimension....time.....space.....

A warped dimension...allowing one to travel light years simply by bending time to suit your travel needs....in seconds.

Amazing stuff...and I don't see how it (in my simple mind) changes Einstein's theories....but it certainly adds a new flair to what we once believe(d) :)

And that, my friends...is a gorgeous thing :)

New data.

Fabulous stuff.


< Message edited by LookieNoNookie -- 11/21/2011 9:21:22 PM >

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RE: Faster Than Light - Again - 11/22/2011 2:36:40 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
A problem with superluminal neutrinos is we know how long it took for neutrinos from the most recent observed supernova took to get to earth.

I have got to second DomKen in this. If I recall correctly (and I may be wrong), there was talk of some neutrino's arriving a bit early from that supernova, but later that was dismissed as not significant. I do not think that anyone thought to look four years previous to the observed supernova event.

In any case, it is interesting and I await further developments.


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RE: Faster Than Light - Again - 11/22/2011 6:25:53 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
A problem with superluminal neutrinos is we know how long it took for neutrinos from the most recent observed supernova took to get to earth.

I have got to second DomKen in this. If I recall correctly (and I may be wrong), there was talk of some neutrino's arriving a bit early from that supernova, but later that was dismissed as not significant. I do not think that anyone thought to look four years previous to the observed supernova event.

In any case, it is interesting and I await further developments.



The various nuetrino detectors catch so few neutrinos that all of them catching a few with roughly the same energy level at the same time is a very big deal. That's what happened when SN 1987A occured. I don't think there are any such anomolies prior that are in the right time frame that don't have some other cause.

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