RE: Camera Talk (Full Version)

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LookieNoNookie -> RE: Camera Talk (11/13/2011 7:41:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


I realized from reading a previous thread that we have some photography enthusiasts here in CM. No surprise, I suppose. I'd just never thought about it before. But the camera talk in that thread never mentioned a development that has had me drooling for a while now, so I thought I'd trot it out.

Some time ago a company called Foveon created a new sensor. Taking advantage of the fact that red, green, and blue light penetrate silicon to different depths, Foveon built a layered image sensor capable of registering full color and luminance data at every pixel. The result was a sensor hailed for the superior sharpness and color fidelity of its images when compared to a conventional sensor of the same size.

The illustration below explains why:

[image]http://www.foveon.com/files/X3_vs_mosaic_new.gif[/image]

The first Foveon sensors were small, and when Sigma started building cameras that incorporated the new devices they were rather simple point and shoot affairs. But things tripped my buy signal when Sigma released the SD-15 utilizing Foveon's latest 14-megapixel chip:

[image]http://www.sigmaphoto.com/client/images/products/SD15.jpg[/image]

I still have some more pennies to save. But meanwhile, in case anyone else might be in the market for a camera, or just interested...

Foveon X3 Technology

Sigma SD-15 DSLR

K.




Fovean came out with this (chip/software improvement/combo) about 3 years ago.

It was supposed to revolutionize (color) digital photography.  As I recall, they attempted to sell it to Intel.

The licensing on this thing was supposed to be a substantial industry event, because they had some kind of new gig that took picture taking to a whole new level.

Something about, taking images with this new 'thing" would allow you to expand the photo to something akin to a stadium, with no loss of pixels or some such.  It not only was supposed to take images that would allow some vastly greater resolution, but that it could/would allow one to find things in a photo that heretofore weren't previously available (digital generally being assumed to capture more than first glance would suggest).  And all of this, in less space, with less power demands.

True?

Has it happened yet?




LaTigresse -> RE: Camera Talk (11/14/2011 3:35:49 AM)

Hmmmmm...........ask the feds.




heartcream -> RE: Camera Talk (11/14/2011 3:41:15 AM)

Mmmmm nice cameras.




Kirata -> RE: Camera Talk (11/17/2011 1:37:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

Something about, taking images with this new 'thing" would allow you to expand the photo to something akin to a stadium, with no loss of pixels or some such. It not only was supposed to take images that would allow some vastly greater resolution, but that it could/would allow one to find things in a photo that heretofore weren't previously available (digital generally being assumed to capture more than first glance would suggest). And all of this, in less space, with less power demands.

True?

I never heard any claims quite that grandiose. But there is a big difference between images derived from a conventional mosaic sensor and those produced by a Foveon chip. To explain we have to address the question: "What is a pixel?"

In normal parlance we think of a "pixel" as a picture element (which is where the term came from). But with a mosaic sensor, the only circumstances under which a picture element corresponds to a sensor element is when you're shooting black and white images. Color is a whole other matter. With color images, there is no correspondence between picture elements and sensor elements. The color value of virtually every single picture element in the derived image is a guess.

A very good guess, with the firmware in today's digital cameras. But a guess nonetheless. When you are shooting color with a mosaic sensor, the color value of every single picture element in the final image has to be estimated from the signal level at the surrounding sensor elements, because each sensor element is sensitive to only one of the three primary colors. And the result is never perfect. Very good, but not perfect. Moreover, since the sharpness of the image depends on clearly defined edges determined by different color values, there is price to be paid in sharpness as well as color fidelity.

With the Foveon chip, on the other hand, every single picture element corresponds directly to a sensor element on the light-facing surface of the chip. There is no algorithmic guessing, and therefore no price to be paid in color fidelity or sharpness. But, and there is a but, you'll notice that I mentioned the light-facing surface of the chip. Because, while a 15-megapixel Foveon chip has 15 million sensor elements, they are arranged in three layers, one for each of the primary colors. As a result, the surface area exposed to the incoming light is comprised of 5 million sensor elements, with another 5-million in the second layer, and the final 5-million in the third.

In a DSLR that uses standard lenses, this smaller sensor surface captures a smaller field of view at the focal plane. But because the images are captured directly, without even the slightest loss in quality due to algorithmic guessing, they do indeed enlarge better than would a comparable crop. And when you start talking about the Sigma D1, with 15-megapixels on the light-facing surface of its 45-megapixel Foveon chip, only two thoughts come to mind. One is "Wow!" and the other is, "second mortgage."

K.




kdsub -> RE: Camera Talk (11/17/2011 7:27:35 AM)

quote:

sharpness of the image depends on clearly defined edges determined by different color values


Kirata I don't claim to know a lot about sensor mechanics but I thought, which is dangerous I know, that edge definition is determined by contrast or luminous levels if you please. Color values, in Photoshop anyway, have nothing to do with sharpness. In fact pure color values are weird to look at.

Below are some examples of luminosity and color...you can see where the edge definition is prominent.

I am most likely talking out my butt and I am sure willing to learn.

Butch

Combined:

[image]http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k69/Daviskw2004/reg1.jpg[/image]

Luminosity:

[image]http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k69/Daviskw2004/luminosity.jpg[/image]

Color:

[image]http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k69/Daviskw2004/color1.jpg[/image]




Kirata -> RE: Camera Talk (11/17/2011 8:12:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Kirata I don't claim to know a lot about sensor mechanics but I thought, which is dangerous I know, that edge definition is determined by contrast or luminous levels if you please. Color values, in Photoshop anyway, have nothing to do with sharpness. In fact pure color values are weird to look at.

It's probably my inadequate description. Here's a snip written by the author of Qimage...

Having spent years developing color interpolation algorithms that try to take one color per pixel and reconstruct the missing 2/3 of the information, I can tell you I have never been a big fan of the Bayer RGBG sensor design... The fact that so many (adjacent) pixels are needed in order to estimate the color of any given pixel in the final image also means that edge detail and sharpness can suffer significantly when shooting subjects that only stimulate one or two of the primary colors.

So what are the visual consequences of shooting with a camera where the resolving power and sharpness vary depending on the color being sampled? Basically, you end up with sharpness and detail inconsistencies. You may shoot a red rose petal lying on a concrete walkway only to find that the almost-gray concrete is tack sharp while the veins in the red flower petal look mottled in comparison. Why? Because all pixels on the sensor contain data for a gray object while only 1/4 of the pixels record significant data for a red subject. The end result in layman's terms is that the photo will look less "real"


If you want the link, I'll dig it up. But maybe better is this article he wrote for Outback Photo with actual image comparisons:

http://www.outbackphoto.com/dp_essentials/dp_essentials_05/essay.html

K.




kdsub -> RE: Camera Talk (11/17/2011 8:43:45 AM)

Thanks Kirata... Doesn't make a lot of sense to me...gray is a color and the primary ingredient of ever shade of hue.

I suspect however the author is trying to explain things that are very technical in a way folks like me can understand… I’ll just enjoy the benefits like they are magic…which they are to me.

Butch




Toppingfrmbottom -> RE: Camera Talk (11/17/2011 9:51:22 AM)

Is that a digital ?




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