RE: Michigan's "license to bully" -- (Full Version)

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Fightdirecto -> RE: Michigan's "license to bully" -- (11/4/2011 5:37:35 PM)

So, if I understand it correctly, if I lived in Michigan and had a child attending public school, and my kid said to another kid, "Since you're a Jew, you shouldn't be allowed to be on the school baseball team because Jews killed Christ and you’re a Christ killer" - my kid is protected from bullying charges by the GOP-backed law as long as he claims his statement is based on his religious belief and he doesn't actually physically assault the Jewish student or physically damage the Jewish student’s property.

But if my kid openly encouraged other students to refuse to play on the school baseball team if the Jewish student was allowed on the team - my kid is still protected from bullying charges by the GOP-backed law as long as he claims his statement is based on his religious belief and he doesn't actually physically assault the Jewish student or physically damage the Jewish student’s property.

But if my kid openly encouraged other students to refuse to attend the games if the Jewish student was allowed on the baseball team - my kid is still protected from bullying charges by the GOP-backed law as long as he claims his statement is based on his religious belief and he doesn't actually physically assault the Jewish student or physically damage the Jewish student’s property.

But if my kid openly encouraged other students to refuse to sit at the same table with the Jewish student in the cafeteria - my kid is still protected from bullying charges by the GOP-backed law as long as he claims his statement is based on his religious belief and he doesn't actually physically assault the Jewish student or physically damage the Jewish student’s property.

But if my kid openly encouraged other students to refuse to sit next to the Jewish student in class - my kid is still protected from bullying charges by the GOP-backed law as long as he claims his statement is based on his religious belief and he doesn't actually physically assault the Jewish student or physically damage the Jewish student’s property.

But if my kid openly encouraged other students to refuse to ride on the same school bus as the Jewish student - my kid is still protected from bullying charges by the GOP-backed law as long as he claims his statement is based on his religious belief and he doesn't actually physically assault the Jewish student or physically damage the Jewish student’s property.

But if my kid openly encouraged other students to refuse to even speak with the Jewish student - my kid is still protected from bullying charges by the GOP-backed law as long as he claims his statement is based on his religious belief and he doesn't actually physically assault the Jewish student or physically damage the Jewish student’s property.

But if my kid taped a sign to a school bulletin board with the Jewish student's picture and the words "Christ-Killer" on it - my kid is still protected from bullying charges by the GOP-backed law as long as he claims his statement is based on his religious belief and he doesn't actually physically assault the Jewish student or physically damage the Jewish student’s property.

In short, the GOP-backed law lays out a blueprint on how to harass a fellow student and not get punished.

[image]local://upfiles/42188/867E6AEA405141BAB6CB64B0594E6474.jpg[/image]




Real0ne -> RE: Michigan's "license to bully" -- (11/4/2011 5:53:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

i'm confused about why the democrats didn't vote. that's definitely laying down on the job. gah what a horrible piece of legislation. 



because none of the people would have wanted them to vote!  After all they do represent the "people"!  [image]http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/stuff/being_sick-403.gif[/image]








thishereboi -> RE: Michigan's "license to bully" -- (11/5/2011 5:32:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

i'm confused about why the democrats didn't vote. that's definitely laying down on the job. gah what a horrible piece of legislation. 


I looked at a couple of articles and I didn't get the impression that they didn't vote, but that none of them voted for it. Not that I can blame them. Now if it is true that they didn't vote at all, then they have nothing to bitch about.




thishereboi -> RE: Michigan's "license to bully" -- (11/5/2011 5:33:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

I am still sorry that I DO.


I am too, but this is where the family is, so this is where I stay. I must say it is worth it. Another baby due next month. I can hardly wait[:)]




DomKen -> RE: Michigan's "license to bully" -- (11/5/2011 6:12:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Not the 1st.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Shepard_Act

I think this law would allow local prosecutors to act without need of federal prosecutors. The federal hate crime statute allows the feds to take a case if the local prosecutors won't or can't.




tazzygirl -> RE: Michigan's "license to bully" -- (11/5/2011 1:13:47 PM)

So what you end up with is a state wanting to release someone because they are protected by this new law... yet the federal government wants to prosecute for hate crime laws.

This is going to cause a whole bunch of problems.




Marc2b -> RE: Michigan's "license to bully" -- (11/7/2011 8:03:55 AM)

quote:

The full language of the insert is: “This section does not prohibit a statement of a sincerely held religious belief or moral conviction of a school employee, school volunteer, pupil, or a pupil and parent or guardian....”

Glenn says that the new legislation does not allow bullying based on religious beliefs or values. “It does no such thing,” Glenn said in response to a series of email questions from Michigan Messenger. “The religious free speech protections included in the bill, consistent with the First Amendment, simply ensure that students won’t be bullied or punished — as occurred last year at a high school in Howell — for daring to say they believe a certain behavior is wrong as a matter of sincerely held religious or moral conviction. The First Amendment and other free speech protections do just that, protect free speech, not bullying. And students, like all other Americans, are free to verbally express their opinions — including religious and moral views — without fear of government repression or persecution, including under anti-bullying or harrassment laws.”

http://www.americanindependent.com/202799/michigan-gop-led-senate-passes-bill-that-many-think-will-encourage-bullying

Democrats want a more detailed measure that specifically outlines reasons students can't be bullied such as sexual orientation, race and weight. The Republican-passed bill doesn't include such a detailed list, often called "enumeration." Sen. Glenn Anderson, D-Westland, said an anti-bullying law should include enumeration so schools can be on the lookout for bias-based harassment. Without it, Anderson said, the legislation "cannot claim" to protect students. But some Republicans said listing specific motivations for bullying in the state law could exclude some students from protection. "A policy that does not enumerate is the only one that protects everybody," said Sen. Tory Rocca, R-Sterling Heights.

http://www.macombdaily.com/articles/2011/11/02/news/politics/doc4eb1ee9f61316415147605.txt?viewmode=2


This is what I thought the situation might be… protection of beliefs from prosecution. Whether this bill actually succeeds in that goal or not, well, time will tell. The problem lies in the definitions of bullying. When it comes to physical bullying there is (or shouldn’t be) any debate but what constitutes verbal bullying? Where are the lines between bullying and free expression?

One obvious line would be hostility. As I noted earlier there is a difference between stating one’s belief that homosexuality is wrong and screaming “DIE FAG, DIE” at someone (or spray painting it on their locker or posting it on their facebook page). Any language that constitutes threats would obviously fall under the term “bullying.”

I think repetition would be another factor. If little Gary Godboy tells little Gerry Gayboy that he is going to burn in hell and that he should repent and beg Jesus for forgiveness (“oh, and here are some tracts that explain it all”), that is not harassment. If Gary continues to voice his views to little Gerry repeatedly, particularly if Gerry has told him “thanks but no thanks, I don’t want to hear it anymore,” then we are moving into harassment and it should be dealt with accordingly but I’m still not sure if it constitutes bullying absent the hostile intent.

Bullying is an attempt to marginalize a person by inflicting physical and/or emotional pain on another and it is such actions that must be targeted and disallowed. Any anti-bullying law must focus on actions (including verbal actions), not on motivations. This is exactly why I am opposed to the concept of hate crimes. Such notions come to close to the concept of thought crime. Examining beliefs (motivations) is okay when investigating a crime but motivations should have no place in the punishment of a crime. It should be the act that is punished, not the motivation behind it.

Well, that's my two cents on the matter.




Fightdirecto -> RE: Michigan's "license to bully" -- (11/7/2011 8:07:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
So what you end up with is a state wanting to release someone because they are protected by this new law... yet the federal government wants to prosecute for hate crime laws.
This is going to cause a whole bunch of problems.

Oddly enough, your question highlights the similarities with the California pot laws.

The state, under certain specifc circumstances, legalized it. But the Feds are arresting and charging people for violating federal pot laws who are complying with the state law.




thishereboi -> RE: Michigan's "license to bully" -- (11/9/2011 8:07:21 AM)

fr
hopefully they are going to fix this

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2011111080352




tazzygirl -> RE: Michigan's "license to bully" -- (11/9/2011 4:41:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
So what you end up with is a state wanting to release someone because they are protected by this new law... yet the federal government wants to prosecute for hate crime laws.
This is going to cause a whole bunch of problems.

Oddly enough, your question highlights the similarities with the California pot laws.

The state, under certain specifc circumstances, legalized it. But the Feds are arresting and charging people for violating federal pot laws who are complying with the state law.



I thought there was a bit more to that story than just violating federal law of selling pot. I recall mentions of money laundering and crossing state lines.




Real0ne -> RE: Michigan's "license to bully" -- (11/9/2011 8:22:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Wont this fly in the face of federal law?

You mean the first amendment? It could. Certainly punishing someone for "bullying" when all they say is the equivalent of "homosexuality is a sin" would certainly violate free speech rights. However something like "You're gay so I think you should be killed" is on the borderline of assault and might be actionable.

Physical bullying is of course not protected by the Constitution, your rights end where my nose begins.



yeh lets make laws so I can get rid of and have extradited all the ugly bitches from my sight.   Thre is a means to an end at work here.

I thought this kind of lame was only found in england.

That sounds good but its as worthless as the grand bullshit that legitimate government is by the consent of the governed, well guess what....try not consenting and see who will bully you with the support of the courts no less.




Real0ne -> RE: Michigan's "license to bully" -- (11/9/2011 8:23:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

[image]local://upfiles/42188/867E6AEA405141BAB6CB64B0594E6474.jpg[/image]


which proves that a small group can in fact oppress a large group thank you very much.




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