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Tolerance? Respect? - 10/23/2011 8:46:16 AM   
GreedyTop


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I saw this over on FL... and I thought it wuold make for an interesting conversation:

"Respect—not tolerance—must be our goal if we would diminish prejudice in our time. For tolerance is often but a gentle disguise for prejudice: the tolerant often behave as self-appointed connoisseurs of weaknesses in others, or self-appointed protectors of those whom they deem to be their inferiors. Psychologically, there is a strong resemblance between the stridently "tolerant" and the prejudiced. For while the one may descend to attacking whole groups of men and the other may rise to a passionate defense of them, both are equally indiscriminate in their attack or defense; and neither has any concern whatsoever for individual character." - Selma G. Hirsch, U.S. social scientist."

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RE: Tolerance? Respect? - 10/23/2011 10:13:02 AM   
PeonForHer


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Instant memory: "Whereas Freud merely tolerated sex; Wilhelm Reich embraced it". Sex has still to be widely recognised as a way towards happiness and completeness.

Freud's view was the one that came to dominate. I think one upshot is that people - including, I think BDSM fans themselves - are still more inclined to look at BDSM and ask, 'What's wrong with them, that they should do this?' rather than 'How much healthier does it make them, to pursue this?'

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RE: Tolerance? Respect? - 10/23/2011 10:19:02 AM   
Termyn8or


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Wrong direction

< Message edited by Termyn8or -- 10/23/2011 10:20:31 AM >

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RE: Tolerance? Respect? - 10/23/2011 10:33:55 AM   
Iamsemisweet


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Thank you for posting that,greedy. I think it is true, there is an element of condescension in the concept of tolerance. After all, you are only"tolerating" whatever it is. While it is still better than the alternative , it is still an us Vs them mentality

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RE: Tolerance? Respect? - 10/23/2011 10:49:45 AM   
MissImmortalPain


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I can only guess that this person is speaking of only the common respect of human life that the average person would give to any other person. Not the kind of true respect that stops a person in movement to contemplate what the other is saying or doing. I mean after all I tolerate drunks, drug addicts, kleptomanics, pedophiles, and serial rapists that seek treatment for an illness they can not control, but I do not respect them for what they are to begin with. I may even "respect" the action they are taking. But until proven that respect(tolerance) is just words not something real. Respect in all cases is something earned not given.

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RE: Tolerance? Respect? - 10/23/2011 11:39:49 AM   
agirl


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I tolerate as necessary and respect what I know I can. It's always a matter of circumstance.

agirl




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RE: Tolerance? Respect? - 10/23/2011 11:55:50 AM   
slaveluci


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I've read that before and overall agree with it. I still don't see tolerance as a bad thing. Not everyone can respect everyone else and/or their actions so, if that's not possible, I'd still rather see them demonstrate tolerance rather than outright intolerance. Respect would be preferable, however, of course..........luci

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RE: Tolerance? Respect? - 10/23/2011 12:10:50 PM   
blacksword404


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

I saw this over on FL... and I thought it wuold make for an interesting conversation:

"Respect—not tolerance—must be our goal if we would diminish prejudice in our time. For tolerance is often but a gentle disguise for prejudice: the tolerant often behave as self-appointed connoisseurs of weaknesses in others, or self-appointed protectors of those whom they deem to be their inferiors. Psychologically, there is a strong resemblance between the stridently "tolerant" and the prejudiced. For while the one may descend to attacking whole groups of men and the other may rise to a passionate defense of them, both are equally indiscriminate in their attack or defense; and neither has any concern whatsoever for individual character." - Selma G. Hirsch, U.S. social scientist."


No person is capable of liking or loving everything. Some you will like. Some you will dislike. You have 2 choices really. Tolerate the thing you dislike or hate or destroy it utterly.

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RE: Tolerance? Respect? - 10/23/2011 12:30:03 PM   
gungadin09


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

"Respect—not tolerance—must be our goal if we would diminish prejudice in our time.

i see the point. "Tolerance" is what you have for an asshole relative, or the crazy guy on the corner who talks to himself.

For tolerance is often but a gentle disguise for prejudice:

That's certainly true sometimes, but not in every case.

...the tolerant often behave as self-appointed connoisseurs of weaknesses in others, or self-appointed protectors of those whom they deem to be their inferiors.

The idea that diversity is important (and ONLY important) because it gives the majority group the chance to develop character by trying to understand and show compassion for those who are less fortunate.


Psychologically, there is a strong resemblance between the stridently "tolerant" and the prejudiced.


Yes, for the reason above. Tolerance CAN be a form of condescension.


For while the one may descend to attacking whole groups of men and the other may rise to a passionate defense of them, both are equally indiscriminate in their attack or defense;

Neither sees the people involved as individuals, but rather a cause or an ideology for the pushing.


and neither has any concern whatsoever for individual character." - Selma G. Hirsch, U.S. social scientist."

i can definitely see his point, but then the danger is that THAT argument can also be used to discredit anyone pushing "tolerance" for the right reasons.


pam


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RE: Tolerance? Respect? - 10/23/2011 12:31:00 PM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

I saw this over on FL... and I thought it wuold make for an interesting conversation:

"Respect—not tolerance—must be our goal if we would diminish prejudice in our time. For tolerance is often but a gentle disguise for prejudice: the tolerant often behave as self-appointed connoisseurs of weaknesses in others, or self-appointed protectors of those whom they deem to be their inferiors. Psychologically, there is a strong resemblance between the stridently "tolerant" and the prejudiced. For while the one may descend to attacking whole groups of men and the other may rise to a passionate defense of them, both are equally indiscriminate in their attack or defense; and neither has any concern whatsoever for individual character." - Selma G. Hirsch, U.S. social scientist."


While I do understand the point she is trying to make, I think that she is misusing the word (or breaking it down to the most technical use) in order to promote her agenda.

From Merriam Webster:

Definition of TOLERANCE

1: capacity to endure pain or hardship : endurance, fortitude, stamina

This is definately not the one that she is talking about. Although this one certainly fits in most BDSM situations.

2 a: sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one's own b: the act of allowing something : toleration

This, in my opinion, is the definition she is attempting. It indicates nothing about a lack of "respect," "superiority" or anything else she mentions. She is simply defining what that means to her, which, in itself, is kind of an act of superiority.

3: the allowable deviation from a standard; especially: the range of variation permitted in maintaining a specified dimension in machining a piece


4 a (1): the capacity of the body to endure or become less responsive to a substance (as a drug) or a physiological insult especially with repeated use or exposure <developed a tolerance to painkillers>; also: the immunological state marked by unresponsiveness to a specific antigen (2): relative capacity of an organism to grow or thrive when subjected to an unfavorable environmental factor b: the maximum amount of a pesticide residue that may lawfully remain on or in food

Tolerance and respect do not have to be mutually exclusive. She seems to be taking the terms "sympathy" and "indulge" as bad things.

I think we should be reasonably tolerant and respectful of other people, based on the circumstances. For instance, I don't think it is appropriate to say, "we are tolerant of the diversity of our neighborhood." That smacks of prejudice. But saying, "we 'respect' the diversity of our neighborhood," doesn't ring right either. It seems to me that we should be "tolerant" of lifestyles we don't understand or participate in. To a point. To me, that is interchangeable with "respect." I'm tolerant of people with kinks unlike my own. I respect people have kinks unlike my own. In neither circumstance, should there be respect of the individual, simply their right to choose (again to a point) what works for them.

There are things we are "tolerant" of as long as they aren't in our space. That isn't always being disrespectful either. I'm "tolerant" of those who are into the whole "toilet slave" thing. I am not "tolerant" enough, however, to have it occur in my house. Does that make me prejudice? I don't think so. It means there are some things I don't care what others choose to do, but have no desire to have those things in my presence.

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RE: Tolerance? Respect? - 10/23/2011 1:24:14 PM   
HannahLynn


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it all fucking depends. i can respect a junkie as easily as anybody else, respect isn't based on the lifestyle decisions one makes it is based on how one conducts themselves. it also depends entirely on the fucking context. say there's some financial planner, the guy is fucking brilliant, every bit of advice is golden. what do you when you find out he diddled his neighbours kid, do you throw out the books and ignore his advice? fuck no, you continue to respect the person in one context and not in another. or say there is a philosopher type whose ideas you respect and he turns out to be a complete fucking drunk, that shouldn't affect one's view of the ideas. they are still just as fucking brilliant as they were before you found out the fucker was a wino.

myself i don't have too fucking much respect or  tolerance for anybody. in my life i have learned  that most people are simply a fucking waste of oxygen, most of them really don't deserve either tolerance or respect. and yes, both have to be earned, i have very unforgiving ideas of right and wrong, there is really very little grey in the world. if some fucker doesn't live up to my standards of right and wrong then they are pretty much fucked as far as i am concerned, i really don't give a fuck if you think it is ok, if i think it is wrong then as far as i am concerned it is wrong - end of fucking story.

and if a person can't even live up to their own ideas of right and wrong <a certain hamster who recently posted on here comes to mind> then they are beneath contempt, fuck them.

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RE: Tolerance? Respect? - 10/23/2011 2:40:07 PM   
LillyBoPeep


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I can see the point of the quote; some people who say they're tolerant are terribly condescending. Some people, for example, see minorities like kids or puppies they have to "help." They refuse to see how that can be negative.

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RE: Tolerance? Respect? - 10/23/2011 2:55:26 PM   
blacksword404


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

I can see the point of the quote; some people who say they're tolerant are terribly condescending. Some people, for example, see minorities like kids or puppies they have to "help." They refuse to see how that can be negative.


True indeed. Some are fine to let us lead but only if their hands are near to "guide". But that's another matter.

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RE: Tolerance? Respect? - 10/23/2011 2:59:05 PM   
Iamsemisweet


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On your financial planner example, it is true, i might not throw away the books. But if I didn't already have them, I woulldn't buy them either. In my own small way, I wouldn't want to contribute with my money to someone who did something I couldn't tolerate.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynn

it all fucking depends. i can respect a junkie as easily as anybody else, respect isn't based on the lifestyle decisions one makes it is based on how one conducts themselves. it also depends entirely on the fucking context. say there's some financial planner, the guy is fucking brilliant, every bit of advice is golden. what do you when you find out he diddled his neighbours kid, do you throw out the books and ignore his advice? fuck no, you continue to respect the person in one context and not in another. or say there is a philosopher type whose ideas you respect and he turns out to be a complete fucking drunk, that shouldn't affect one's view of the ideas. they are still just as fucking brilliant as they were before you found out the fucker was a wino.

myself i don't have too fucking much respect or  tolerance for anybody. in my life i have learned  that most people are simply a fucking waste of oxygen, most of them really don't deserve either tolerance or respect. and yes, both have to be earned, i have very unforgiving ideas of right and wrong, there is really very little grey in the world. if some fucker doesn't live up to my standards of right and wrong then they are pretty much fucked as far as i am concerned, i really don't give a fuck if you think it is ok, if i think it is wrong then as far as i am concerned it is wrong - end of fucking story.

and if a person can't even live up to their own ideas of right and wrong <a certain hamster who recently posted on here comes to mind> then they are beneath contempt, fuck them.



_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

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RE: Tolerance? Respect? - 10/23/2011 3:33:48 PM   
HannahLynn


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quote:

But if I didn't already have them, I woulldn't buy them either.
that's what used book stores are for. 

except of course in louisiana of course. dumb fuckers.

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RE: Tolerance? Respect? - 10/23/2011 3:37:42 PM   
Iamsemisweet


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OK, maybe used but only if his advice was really, really golden

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Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

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RE: Tolerance? Respect? - 10/23/2011 3:53:14 PM   
JstAnotherSub


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I have thought about this all day, and, for me, the 2 are no where near close.  I tolerate things and people daily that I have no respect for.

In my professional life, the people will never know.  In my personal life, I can just avoid that which really offends me, and the rest, Live and let live.


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RE: Tolerance? Respect? - 10/23/2011 6:58:37 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

I saw this over on FL... and I thought it wuold make for an interesting conversation:

"Respect—not tolerance—must be our goal if we would diminish prejudice in our time. For tolerance is often but a gentle disguise for prejudice: the tolerant often behave as self-appointed connoisseurs of weaknesses in others, or self-appointed protectors of those whom they deem to be their inferiors. Psychologically, there is a strong resemblance between the stridently "tolerant" and the prejudiced. For while the one may descend to attacking whole groups of men and the other may rise to a passionate defense of them, both are equally indiscriminate in their attack or defense; and neither has any concern whatsoever for individual character." - Selma G. Hirsch, U.S. social scientist."

Totally disagree with Hirsch.

I'll tolerate things that I disagree with, or don't like.  Asking me to then "respect" those things or people?  That is not in the cards.

And why should anyone really care?  Our opinions are our own.  As long as our actions are in compliance with the law, and good morality, requiring someone to "respect" everyone  or even some is asking for "mind control" and PC run amok.

Firm




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RE: Tolerance? Respect? - 10/23/2011 9:15:41 PM   
MadAxeman


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There is some muddiness here. People have different ideas about what respect and tolerance are. A paedophile has been used as an example. If you make sure they are never alone with your children, you are showing them respect, much like respecting a lion by not turning your back on it.
Tolerance has quite disparate self definitions. Some unenlightened (to my mind) thinkers will begin a sentence with 'I'm all for equal rights for gays/minorities/disabled blah blah' and all they mean is they won't string them up. Not personally. They often continue by highlighting some funding issue that has crawled up their arse, like creches for black disabled gay people. I also see these type of comments about someone who doesn't share the same political views. It seems all conversations are conducted at a screaming hysterical pitch, at the same time as holding freedom of speech sacred. If you see tolerance as turning your back on what you don't like, that's closing your mind somewhat.
It's an improvement on open hostility, but it doesn't make you a tolerant person.


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RE: Tolerance? Respect? - 10/23/2011 10:01:20 PM   
Termyn8or


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AAAAh, now we get to the true meaning of respect.

Anyone got an idea what the true meaning of honor might be ?

It's not what you think.

T^T

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