RE: Tolerance? Respect? (Full Version)

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heartcream -> RE: Tolerance? Respect? (10/23/2011 10:33:12 PM)

Sometimes I am genuinely tolerant and it surprises me at times to notice. Especially when it is something I previously had less tolerance for. I find the longer I live and learn the less I have intolerance at times. When I act tolerant but not really aligned, it is usually a self-preservation thing. I dont wish to be rude or suffer consequences of being blatantly intolerant. Sometimes I am intolerant and feel shame at some other point or not.

I can be intolerant of others intolerance. I can feel intolerant about a whole heap of worthy things to feel intolerant about.




HeatherMcLeather -> RE: Tolerance? Respect? (10/23/2011 11:00:00 PM)

quote:

Anyone got an idea what the true meaning of honor might be ?
That depends, it can be a noun or a verb, and has several very different meanings in either case.




popeye1250 -> RE: Tolerance? Respect? (10/24/2011 1:34:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

I saw this over on FL... and I thought it wuold make for an interesting conversation:

"Respect—not tolerance—must be our goal if we would diminish prejudice in our time. For tolerance is often but a gentle disguise for prejudice: the tolerant often behave as self-appointed connoisseurs of weaknesses in others, or self-appointed protectors of those whom they deem to be their inferiors. Psychologically, there is a strong resemblance between the stridently "tolerant" and the prejudiced. For while the one may descend to attacking whole groups of men and the other may rise to a passionate defense of them, both are equally indiscriminate in their attack or defense; and neither has any concern whatsoever for individual character." - Selma G. Hirsch, U.S. social scientist."


Greedy, I'm just very suspicious of people who try to "tell" others how to think. There's just something very "wrong" with it.
Every time I read something like that I get visions of nazi storm troopers marching on a dark rainy night. (Scary!)
I just read that again and it sounds like that woman doesn't get out that often or has a very active imagination and that last sentance is awkward and hard to make sense out of.
That piece imho is not very well written and she seems to be all over the board there. I still have trouble trying to understand what she is trying to say and to make matters worse she uses the word "tolerant" to mean something that it doesn't mean further confusing the reader.
Sounds like she has quite the ego on her.




PeonForHer -> RE: Tolerance? Respect? (10/24/2011 9:47:25 AM)

quote:

Every time I read something like that I get visions of nazi storm troopers marching on a dark rainy night. (Scary!)


Blimey, Popeye - Nazi stormtroopers were monsters in many ways, but I think their descending upon terrified citizens in order to install a strict regime of tolerance and respect is one thing we really can't accuse them of.




GreedyTop -> RE: Tolerance? Respect? (10/24/2011 10:36:57 AM)

*snort* Popeye.. even though yu and I are worlds apart, you know I (usually) like you. But I gotta go with Peon on this..

I mean. REALLY??? Stormtroopers swarming in to PROTECT free specch, etc??

I agree.. she didnt state her views definitively (in my mind..) .. but thats kinda why I liked it.. to open a (hopefully honest) discourse on her statements..





LillyBoPeep -> RE: Tolerance? Respect? (10/24/2011 10:39:21 AM)

maybe it's just your reading comprehension -- tolerant has several different meanings, and she's using it in one particularly sense, without reference to any of its other meanings.
it doesn't seem "all over the place," to me, and in fact, seems fairly right-on in some -- note, that's some, not all -- cases.




PeonForHer -> RE: Tolerance? Respect? (10/24/2011 10:52:27 AM)

I don't know the author, but if she's a social scientist, she'll have needed to define the two words somewhere. You don't generally get past the review stage of a book in social sciences without your proposal getting roasted for basic failings like that.




GreedyTop -> RE: Tolerance? Respect? (10/24/2011 11:02:07 AM)

guessing LIlly was doing FR and not replying directly to me.. ???




LillyBoPeep -> RE: Tolerance? Respect? (10/24/2011 11:19:05 AM)

oh yeah, was a reply to popeye.
i just never use that FR thing. maybe i should.




popeye1250 -> RE: Tolerance? Respect? (10/24/2011 12:17:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

Every time I read something like that I get visions of nazi storm troopers marching on a dark rainy night. (Scary!)


Blimey, Popeye - Nazi stormtroopers were monsters in many ways, but I think their descending upon terrified citizens in order to install a strict regime of tolerance and respect is one thing we really can't accuse them of.


Peon, you took that in the wrong context,  I said  that when people or groups try to tell others how to think it raises an alarm in me.
You know, like people who use "political correctness" as their personal weapon to try to control others.
People like that need a real  spanking and I don't mean a "good" one.
Did not the nazis try to control people's thinking? I believe they had a whole propaganda branch under,....Himmler?
If I were this woman's teacher I'd tell her to tear it up and go and re-write it. Symbolism clashing with symbolism. Metaphor murdering metaphor.
It's just so poorly written. It's almost painful to read it.




LizDeluxe -> RE: Tolerance? Respect? (10/24/2011 3:02:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop
"Respect—not tolerance—must be our goal if we would diminish prejudice in our time." - Selma G. Hirsch, U.S. social scientist."


Selma is on the right track but the goal should not be tolerance or respect as much as it should be acceptance. You can tolerate and show respect for those you still hold in contempt. I see it every day where I work. The company I work for is very diversity oriented. On the surface, you'd think these different groups think the world of each other but behind the scenes it is a different story. They're respectful because they have to be - company orders. You see many of the same parallels in society.




MadAxeman -> RE: Tolerance? Respect? (10/24/2011 6:18:51 PM)

Respect to the cleave LD




blacksword404 -> RE: Tolerance? Respect? (10/24/2011 6:41:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LizDeluxe

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop
"Respect—not tolerance—must be our goal if we would diminish prejudice in our time." - Selma G. Hirsch, U.S. social scientist."


Selma is on the right track but the goal should not be tolerance or respect as much as it should be acceptance. You can tolerate and show respect for those you still hold in contempt. I see it every day where I work. The company I work for is very diversity oriented. On the surface, you'd think these different groups think the world of each other but behind the scenes it is a different story. They're respectful because they have to be - company orders. You see many of the same parallels in society.



They might feign respect because it is required of them, but do they really respect each other? Respect cannot be forced. Do they freely give their respect?




LaTigresse -> RE: Tolerance? Respect? (10/25/2011 1:08:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

I saw this over on FL... and I thought it wuold make for an interesting conversation:

"Respect—not tolerance—must be our goal if we would diminish prejudice in our time. For tolerance is often but a gentle disguise for prejudice: the tolerant often behave as self-appointed connoisseurs of weaknesses in others, or self-appointed protectors of those whom they deem to be their inferiors. Psychologically, there is a strong resemblance between the stridently "tolerant" and the prejudiced. For while the one may descend to attacking whole groups of men and the other may rise to a passionate defense of them, both are equally indiscriminate in their attack or defense; and neither has any concern whatsoever for individual character." - Selma G. Hirsch, U.S. social scientist."


I think the whole thing is too vague with too much grey area.

I could count on one hand, with fingers left over, the number of people in this world I respect. I don't OWE ANYONE respect. However there are certain positions I respect that individuals may hold, that I feel I owe a certain amount of respect to. The office of president for instance. Depending on the time in history I may have no respect at all for the person but the position/office is a slightly different thing. Then again, there is a reason why the military was never something I considered. Too many fucktards running things I couldn't even pretend to respect.

Courtesy....that is a different kettle of fish. I can be courteous to damned near anyone given the situation and need. That is a part of civilized society and how we, as humans, manage to get along in any sort of way. I figure my grandmother and great aunt worked so hard to try and teach me good manners, the least I can do is live like I was paying attention.

Tolerance is also kinda grey. There is shit that happens here at work that I need to be tolerant of to keep things cruising along. That same shit may not be tolerated at all, outside of here. It all comes down to how badly I want to stay here, and whether or not there is any conflict with my own personal morality in tolerating the shit at work.

As far as other people's weirdnesses or whatever......right or wrong, my own views and morality is always going to colour what I believe is acceptable. That is just human nature.

The way I see it, the best route to take is educating people in whatever ways we can. Having calm, rational discussions with people we may disagree with, but in a way that is non-confrontational but allows for a different perspective. Then allowing them to find their own way.

Some people are just so set in their way of thinking that you are not going to change it. You've got to accept that. To try and fight it will often have the very opposite effect from the desired one. Life is either going to teach them, or it won't.

For ME, it's all about accepting the responsibility of our opinions. Being able to own it and accept that there may be consequences. I can respect a person I disagree with as long as they are honourable about their own opinions. I cannot respect a person that runs around saying what they think people want to hear because it's PC and all that bullshit, even if I agree with their original opinion.




Buzzzz -> RE: Tolerance? Respect? (10/25/2011 5:04:51 PM)

quote:

it all fucking depends. i can respect a junkie as easily as anybody else, respect isn't based on the lifestyle decisions one makes it is based on how one conducts themselves. it also depends entirely on the fucking context. say there's some financial planner, the guy is fucking brilliant, every bit of advice is golden. what do you when you find out he diddled his neighbours kid, do you throw out the books and ignore his advice? fuck no, you continue to respect the person in one context and not in another. or say there is a philosopher type whose ideas you respect and he turns out to be a complete fucking drunk, that shouldn't affect one's view of the ideas. they are still just as fucking brilliant as they were before you found out the fucker was a wino.

myself i don't have too fucking much respect or tolerance for anybody. in my life i have learned that most people are simply a fucking waste of oxygen, most of them really don't deserve either tolerance or respect. and yes, both have to be earned, i have very unforgiving ideas of right and wrong, there is really very little grey in the world. if some fucker doesn't live up to my standards of right and wrong then they are pretty much fucked as far as i am concerned, i really don't give a fuck if you think it is ok, if i think it is wrong then as far as i am concerned it is wrong - end of fucking story.

and if a person can't even live up to their own ideas of right and wrong <a certain hamster who recently posted on here comes to mind> then they are beneath contempt, fuck them.


she is so smart , too bad she uses so many F&^%%^ words!!




Edwynn -> RE: Tolerance? Respect? (10/26/2011 3:18:34 PM)



~FR~

Lest  it might have escaped notice, the quote from the OP was about the societal, ethnic, regional etc. question of "tolerance' vs. "respect," not the everyday individual crap.


Just a heads up here.




gungadin09 -> RE: Tolerance? Respect? (10/26/2011 3:23:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
Lest  it might have escaped notice, the quote from the OP was about the societal, ethnic, regional etc. question of "tolerance' vs. "respect," not the everyday individual crap.


So, what's your opinion about that topic?

pam




Edwynn -> RE: Tolerance? Respect? (10/26/2011 4:03:24 PM)



Rather than state opinion, I will present some observations.

I recall in the late 80's-early 90's all the ads on TV that presented other races as something to be "tolerated,' via all the "tolerance" adverts at the time, but this being  right alongside the fusillade of "zero tolerance" anti-drug ads at the same time.

The effect got across, as anyone who knows marketing and targeting the of the limbic portion of the brain would understand.  Double-speak at its best. Zero tolerance won the day.


We later had all the adverts telling kids that "your parents took a toke while they were in college, therefore 'did drugs,' therefore, you don't have to listen to anything they say anymore."

Those ads flooded the airwaves, and I hardly watch TV. It was that pervasive. The dad rolling himself up in a white blanket while the narrator telling his 'daughter' (on screen) to explain it all to her when she "asks about drugs," ; the depiction of the 50-something "dad" working in his woodworking shop, gray hair, plaining and sanding away on the woodwork, with an "Ohio State" or other college sweatshirt on, while the narrator says to the prospective "younger audience";

"You know, many people in the sixties did drugs while they were in college.  .... 

"Your dad went to college, didn't he?"

I absolutely kid you not, this was an actual advert.

Much more where that came from.



But, as the online "newsfart" twits would say:

"What do YOU think about that?

Indeed, what is your opinion on THAT?

For those completely missing out on the real  "message" here, I honestly do not know what  better than the "tolerance" or  "ask your parents about drugs"  campaigns that could possibly explain the situation any better.

Toss it in the river, or shut up.








Edwynn -> RE: Tolerance? Respect? (10/26/2011 7:54:31 PM)



quote:

... the depiction of the 50-something "dad" working in his woodworking shop, gray hair, plaining and sanding away on the woodwork,




BTW, that should have been spelled "planing," 'the straightening or smoothing of the edge of a board,' not "plaining," as was spelt in the previous post. Don't ask me what the latter means.









FirmhandKY -> RE: Tolerance? Respect? (10/26/2011 8:31:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

Rather than state opinion, I will present some observations.

... mumble mumble mumble ...

There were some words and sentences in there that used some of the same words as in the OP, and are vaguely related to the topic ... but maybe you should quit taking a snort before you post? 

Because I didn't see how much of anything you said was either coherent, or related to the topic.

IMO, anyway.

Firm




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