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RE: Gun-walking....republican version of fast & furious... - 10/15/2011 9:25:02 AM   
mnottertail


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RE: Gun-walking....republican version of fast & furious... - 10/15/2011 9:45:12 AM   
Sanity


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One of the last posts I made from the other thread on Fast & Furious before Delta locked it:

quote:



Again,

Every administration, every law enforcement agency engages in these sting operations. The difference here is that this administration was exceedingly careless, someone got killed, and its becoming apparent that Holder lied to Congress about his rather glaring fuck up (whether it was his personally, or someone under him).

Who was it who said "its always the cover up that gets them", Rich? This thing will continue to unravel.



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RE: Gun-walking....republican version of fast & furious... - 10/15/2011 9:47:53 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		And you are arguing this against or for the republican sting? or derailing?

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RE: Gun-walking....republican version of fast & furious... - 10/15/2011 9:52:28 AM   
Owner59


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Looks like hoping for/helping an economic down-turn is all republicans have to run on.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 10/15/2011 9:54:17 AM >

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RE: Gun-walking....republican version of fast & furious... - 10/15/2011 9:53:20 AM   
Sanity


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You are seriously trying to dictate that no one may compare "The Republican" fast and furious to the Holder scandal?

The only derailing here is your incessantly trying to make the thread about me, mnot...



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RE: Gun-walking....republican version of fast & furious... - 10/15/2011 9:53:25 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

WASHINGTON -- The federal government under the Bush administration ran an operation that allowed hundreds of guns to be transferred to suspected arms traffickers - the same tactic that congressional Republicans have criticized President Barack Obama's administration for using, two federal law enforcement officials said Tuesday.

...

Following the discovery that agents in Tucson let the guns "walk," a tactic which has long been against Justice Department policy, the department under Obama decided to bring charges against those who had come under investigation in 2006.

...

To date in Wide Receiver, nine people have been charged with making false statements in acquisition of firearms and illicit transfer, shipment or delivery of firearms. Two of the nine defendants have pleaded guilty and a plea hearing is scheduled for Oct. 13 for two other defendants.

....

So, thats the old one, and now the same folks involved in the new one, the difference is this time they are under indictment or have been transferred out...

Obama appears to have done something about it when he knew of it in each case.

Wait ...

You are saying that the Obama admin found the Bush admin operation illegal .... but then turned around and did the exact same thing, but on a larger scale ... and some how this lets Holder and the Obama admin off the hook?

Am I missing something here?

Firm


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RE: Gun-walking....republican version of fast & furious... - 10/15/2011 10:02:12 AM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

WASHINGTON -- The federal government under the Bush administration ran an operation that allowed hundreds of guns to be transferred to suspected arms traffickers - the same tactic that congressional Republicans have criticized President Barack Obama's administration for using, two federal law enforcement officials said Tuesday.

...

Following the discovery that agents in Tucson let the guns "walk," a tactic which has long been against Justice Department policy, the department under Obama decided to bring charges against those who had come under investigation in 2006.

...

To date in Wide Receiver, nine people have been charged with making false statements in acquisition of firearms and illicit transfer, shipment or delivery of firearms. Two of the nine defendants have pleaded guilty and a plea hearing is scheduled for Oct. 13 for two other defendants.

....

So, thats the old one, and now the same folks involved in the new one, the difference is this time they are under indictment or have been transferred out...

Obama appears to have done something about it when he knew of it in each case.

Wait ...

You are saying that the Obama admin found the Bush admin operation illegal .... but then turned around and did the exact same thing, but on a larger scale ... and some how this lets Holder and the Obama admin off the hook?

Am I missing something here?

Firm


No.

Law enforcement sting operations happen all the time.In every local and at every level.

And as all things human,sometimes bad things happen.Sometimes really bad things happen.

The issue here isn`t whether people make mistakes but about republicans exploiting tragedies, for their political dirty tricks.

K?

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RE: Gun-walking....republican version of fast & furious... - 10/15/2011 12:15:18 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

You must understand, this is a war of words and propaganda, not of facts. Operation 'Wide-Receiver' started by Bush in 2006 (?) and was exactly the same as this latest corruption.



No, they arent even close to exactly the same.

Under WR tracking of every gun was attempted, undef FAF there was never any attempt to track them
When tracking didnt prove reliable WR was stopped
The Mexican government knew about and cooperated with WR.
Nobody lied/covered up for WR.

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RE: Gun-walking....republican version of fast & furious... - 10/15/2011 4:58:53 PM   
SlutJessi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

No.

Law enforcement sting operations happen all the time.In every local and at every level.

And as all things human,sometimes bad things happen.Sometimes really bad things happen.

The issue here isn`t whether people make mistakes but about republicans exploiting tragedies, for their political dirty tricks.

K?


So its ok to secretly send thousands of guns into a neighboring country with a drug lord problem. Its ok to 'accidentally' forget to track them.

Its ok because the GOP did it and they are evil.

Doesnt really jive.

Sounds like someone is a bit sold out to a certain 1% of the population and will repeat their lame excuses ad nauseum.

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RE: Gun-walking....republican version of fast & furious... - 10/15/2011 6:03:07 PM   
xssve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SlutJessi

So does that make it ok? Change we can believe in.
Yes, but only if you're a republican.

Technically, it's a reasonable law enforcement tactic in theory, i.e., it's a sting operation and a sting operation requires bait - if the fish are just eating the bait off the hook, then you need to rethink the operation - haven't these people ever heard of RFID's?

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RE: Gun-walking....republican version of fast & furious... - 10/15/2011 6:10:25 PM   
xssve


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Status: offline 		And, I believe you missed the part about an investigation which implies that no, it's not OK.

Unless it just a way for the NRA to move more guns for their armaments clients, then it's just "good business", and a way to "create jobs" for police, gun dealers, EMT's, emergency room staff, etc.

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RE: Gun-walking....republican version of fast & furious... - 10/15/2011 7:55:20 PM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SlutJessi


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

No.

Law enforcement sting operations happen all the time.In every local and at every level.

And as all things human,sometimes bad things happen.Sometimes really bad things happen.

The issue here isn`t whether people make mistakes but about republicans exploiting tragedies, for their political dirty tricks.

K?


So its ok to secretly send thousands of guns into a neighboring country with a drug lord problem. Its ok to 'accidentally' forget to track them.

Its ok because the GOP did it and they are evil.

Doesnt really jive.

Sounds like someone is a bit sold out to a certain 1% of the population and will repeat their lame excuses ad nauseum.


Pay attention now.Read slowly.One word at a time......

It`s not ok to exploit and abuse a tragedy, for partisan politics....


That`s what`s not ok.


Which party is calling for hearings?

Which party is making someone`s tragedy, a political football?


Duhahh!


Your pic is really scary,btw.

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RE: Gun-walking....republican version of fast & furious... - 10/15/2011 10:23:55 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

The issue here isn`t whether people make mistakes but about republicans exploiting tragedies, for their political dirty tricks.


and


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

It`s not ok to exploit and abuse a tragedy, for partisan politics....

That`s what`s not ok.

Which party is calling for hearings?

Which party is making someone`s tragedy, a political football?


"You don’t ever want a crisis to go to waste; it’s an opportunity to do important things that you would otherwise avoid." -- Rahm Emanuel (video)

Damn you, Owner!  You changing the frigging rules again?!!

Or did you mean its only a "bad thing" if Republicans do it?



Firm

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 10/15/2011 10:26:45 PM >

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RE: Gun-walking....republican version of fast & furious... - 10/17/2011 7:03:21 AM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
Wait ...

You are saying that the Obama admin found the Bush admin operation illegal .... but then turned around and did the exact same thing, but on a larger scale ... and some how this lets Holder and the Obama admin off the hook?Am I missing something here?

Firm



Wait.....

ARE YOU SAYING that the republicans are introducing legislation to keep ALL the republicans from blowing each other in the Minneapolis Airport Bathrooms as a gesture of their faith in the family values they hold so dear?


Clearly not.......JUST AS CLEARLY.............

OK? You can run that on lesser men, don't even do that with me....

Perhaps a reading of what I wrote, after quoting excerpts from the article might clear up your 'honest debating' soi-disant interprerative shortcomings here.


I did not assign guilt TO EITHER ADMINISTRATION, nor did I vote for the BEATIFICATION of EITHER ADMINISTRATION, I simply observed that the article appears to be relating that once Obama found out about the 'few rogue agents' running guns he called a halt to it, like someone did about Abu Grahib, right?


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RE: Gun-walking....republican version of fast & furious... - 10/17/2011 7:14:56 AM   
subrob1967


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How many American ATF agents died under the Bush sting?

You guys can keep trying to deflect, and defend, and blame Bush, but nobody is buying your bullshit obfuscation.


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RE: Gun-walking....republican version of fast & furious... - 10/17/2011 7:17:57 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Wait.....

ARE YOU SAYING that the republicans are introducing legislation to keep ALL the republicans from blowing each other in the Minneapolis Airport Bathrooms as a gesture of their faith in the family values they hold so dear?


Clearly not.......JUST AS CLEARLY.............

OK? You can run that on lesser men, don't even do that with me....

Perhaps a reading of what I wrote, after quoting excerpts from the article might clear up your 'honest debating' soi-disant interprerative shortcomings here.


I did not assign guilt TO EITHER ADMINISTRATION, nor did I vote for the BEATIFICATION of EITHER ADMINISTRATION, I simply observed that the article appears to be relating that once Obama found out about the 'few rogue agents' running guns he called a halt to it, like someone did about Abu Grahib, right?


Ron,

It was a question. (actually, two)

You have defended the Obama admin once in this thread, and you have castigated the Bush administration once in this thread.  I was asking you to clarify your position, not attributing one to you.

Firm


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RE: Gun-walking....republican version of fast & furious... - 10/17/2011 7:19:21 AM   
FirmhandKY


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Status: offline 		And, Ron, what we don't know, but you are assuming ... what did Obama know, and when did he know it?

Firm


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RE: Gun-walking....republican version of fast & furious... - 10/17/2011 7:25:47 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		Kimberly D. Place
(August 1, 2007)


easy enough to look up, sport.

2008. Over a 59 month audit period (between 2002 and 2007), in a report dated September, 2008, the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General, determined that 76 firearms and 418 laptop computers were lost, stolen or missing from ATF.

Looks like we don't have to worry about Obama is gonna take your guns away, the ATF will lose them for us, huh?


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RE: Gun-walking....republican version of fast & furious... - 10/17/2011 7:29:33 AM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

And, Ron, what we don't know, but you are assuming ... what did Obama know, and when did he know it?

Firm




We all are having our assumptive periods here, and I guess the reason that I defend and detract is that it is not looking real cut and dried, and I would call this williwaw at this point way too early to take a wait and see attitude.

I am out to lunch on the finality of anything here. He coulda, he coulda not.

That is the sum and total of it, for now, where I am.

We shall see what the investigations come up with.

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RE: Gun-walking....republican version of fast & furious... - 10/17/2011 9:06:59 AM   
subrob1967


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Kimberly D. Place
(August 1, 2007)


easy enough to look up, sport.

2008. Over a 59 month audit period (between 2002 and 2007), in a report dated September, 2008, the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General, determined that 76 firearms and 418 laptop computers were lost, stolen or missing from ATF.

Looks like we don't have to worry about Obama is gonna take your guns away, the ATF will lose them for us, huh?



Ok, let me clarify my question, how many died due to negligence, from a gun purchased specifically for gun walking? Or with a GUN purchased for the sting?

quote:

Special Agent Kimberly Place was killed when her vehicle was struck head-on, on I-91 in West Springfield, Massachusetts, at approximately 6:30 pm.


Kinda far from the Southern border, even by lefty standards.


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