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[Poll]

Do you support a Palestinian State?


Yes
  52% (18)
No
  38% (13)
Unsure
  8% (3)


Total Votes : 34
(last vote on : 9/20/2011 5:36:01 PM)
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RE: Do you support a Palestinian State? - 9/20/2011 5:34:38 AM   
samboct


Posts: 1817
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline 		I voted yes. Israel has ratcheted up the pressure on the creation of a Palestinian state by the West Bank settlements. The Palestinians in Israel are second class citizens- and they're second class citizens in other Arab countries. Did Jordan want them? Hell no, they killed them too. They need their own damn country.

In terms of the peace process- well this peace process has been going on for at least 4 decades (post the '73 war) from my perspective- and both sides have managed to shoot themselves in the feet so many times, their feet have got to resemble cheap Swiss cheese. The claim is that by going to the UN, the peace process will be derailed. Well, it hasn't been a very useful peace process- maybe this is the shot in the arm that it needs? I don't know- but I think the status quo is untenable.

That being said- I think that any state that gets formed, needs to explicitly acknowledge the right of Israel to exist, the rights of Jewish settlers, and it can't be armed to the teeth. Consider- if the Palestinians lay down their arms, well, then Israel is going to have a hard time using military force in the region. Nor will Israel be able to claim that the state represents a threat to its security.

How viable is a state where Muslims and Jews live together? Unfortunately, the track record to date is pretty poor. Israel is an apartheid country- and Palestinians don't have the same rights as Jews. In Muslim countries, where there used to be thriving Jewish communities in towns like Baghdad and Damascus, well, the Muslims put pressure on the Jews to leave- even before the '67 war, so that those communities have withered. Anybody got an example of a predominantly Muslim country where Jews and Muslims live together peacefully? Doesn't mean it shouldn't be tried- but let's acknowledge that based on history, this is something of a long shot.

Biggest problem? The guy who wants to make this happen probably doesn't exist or wouldn't have the respect of the Palestinians. Mahmoud Abbas? Don't know if he'd agree to these terms, and he hasn't been able to keep them in line. Hamas? Yeah, right....

This ain't gonna be easy....


Sam

(in reply to DarkSteven)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Do you support a Palestinian State? - 9/20/2011 7:10:27 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		If the Palestinian state happens, then their primary concern will be policing, and policing to stop the die hards from screwing it all up by attacking Israel as before, possibly with more effective weaponry, and that, because it is known those that already provoke Israel are a war like minority, they currently do as they do and have done because they are the ones with the weaponry and the ability to use it and what other tactics they deem useful on whoever to carry out their plans.

But it occurs to me not every Palestinian is a murderous idealogue, so if they want to live peacefully as their own people in a state of their own, they should be given every chance to do so, and if it means UN peacekeeping being there to show them how to do it and in the meantime quell the vicious difficult, then so be it, I have no problem.

Perhaps even the thought might be they have had enough of the past, fed up with being the idealogical battle front and want to move forward and prosper and there let other states prosecute the ideology if it bothers them so much.

_____________________________

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(in reply to samboct)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Do you support a Palestinian State? - 9/20/2011 7:15:12 AM   
ashjor911


Posts: 7793
Joined: 9/7/2010
From: balcony, having a Smoke
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

There is no evidence anywhere for King David however if you move a little forward in time there are plenty of historical references to later Hebrew kings in Jerusalem. IIRC the first one we have a written reference to is Omri.

Do not attempt to equate the lack of any historical records for someone who may have lived more than 3000 years ago to a lack of historical evidence that Jerusalem was the capitol of a Jewish Kingdom by no later than 900BC.


Pharaohs lived few 100`s miles away more than 7000 years ago, & there still historical records?

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
That the UN created Israel is a convenient fiction,


When Did I say that the UN created Israel ? ( I said the UN gave the right for Israel),
however, you may look at all of the UN rules & regulations, see that none of them give a right to the Palestinian refugees to return.

a Palestinian state, would mean a Reconize from others, a police force, an army, ... etc
& that what Israel would not do, (Israel want to make is a " a Weapon-free state") for the safty of the israeli people,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

The Islamic capital of the region is Al-Ramleh, it was never Jerusalem except for the Christian Crusaders,


wrong, The Islamic capital of the region was Damascus, or Bagdad, for centuries,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

I remember the offer a few years back of one million dollars to give to anyone who finds a single mention of the Jerusalem in the Koran.


as you know the Koran its in arbic, & in arabic Jerusalem have more than one word if you want to translate,
however,
(Jerusalem the city) it was there, "Al-Isra 1" as (المسجد الأقصى- Al-Aqsa Mosque)

however (Al-Aqsa Mosque) was bulid after the the Koran, its Significance of the place and the city as a whole.
as for the word (Jerusalem=القدس) it was mentioned more than once as a word (Literal translations of the word).
you may check if that offer still stand so I would be a millionere, right now.
& there was no a single mention for " mecca" in the Koran, that dose not mean it was not in another word Significance of the place and the city as a whole...

< Message edited by ashjor911 -- 9/20/2011 7:18:15 AM >

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(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Do you support a Palestinian State? - 9/20/2011 7:18:22 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		The Islamic capital of the region was Damascus, or Bagdad, for centuries,/snip

That is what I thought.

(in reply to ashjor911)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Do you support a Palestinian State? - 9/20/2011 7:28:49 AM   
Iamsemisweet


Posts: 3651
Joined: 4/9/2011
From: The Great Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		Do you believe Israel has the obligation to treat their neighbors in a neighborly fashion? And why do you believe the have the right to exist on that piece of ground? Do you think there are limits an israels right to expand?
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Two state, one state, split it up any number of ways, does it matter?  The problem I run into is that I believe Israel has a right to exist, and to be treated in a neighborly fashion, by their neighbors.  That needs to be an easy point of agreement, before I support any of it.




_____________________________

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The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Do you support a Palestinian State? - 9/20/2011 7:29:05 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ashjor911

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

There is no evidence anywhere for King David however if you move a little forward in time there are plenty of historical references to later Hebrew kings in Jerusalem. IIRC the first one we have a written reference to is Omri.

Do not attempt to equate the lack of any historical records for someone who may have lived more than 3000 years ago to a lack of historical evidence that Jerusalem was the capitol of a Jewish Kingdom by no later than 900BC.


Pharaohs lived few 100`s miles away more than 7000 years ago, & there still historical records?


Not as many as you think and the Egyptians were a large empire with a predilection for building huge stone cities and temples in very arid environments, which helped preserve the writing, and covering them in writing. And even then we don't have any certain historical records older than 2900BC so 4900 years not 7k.

A small kingdom that mostly kept to itself and was not a major player in the trade routes of the time is much less likely to come up in the very sparse records that survive.

(in reply to ashjor911)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Do you support a Palestinian State? - 9/20/2011 7:46:40 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		To me they already are a state…but without negotiated boundaries. Just saying a boundary established 63 years ago is valid is not facing reality. Imagine what would happen if all countries boundaries throughout the world were changed to 1948 boundaries by a UN resolution.

There needs to be a mutual negotiated peace agreement that includes borders before they should be admitted to the UN…How can you responsibly admit a state without knowing the limits of their control or the location of their borders?

If the UN can determine borders that is in agreement with all involved then I’m all for a Palestinian State.

Butch

_____________________________

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RE: Do you support a Palestinian State? - 9/20/2011 8:00:27 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Two state, one state, split it up any number of ways, does it matter?  The problem I run into is that I believe Israel has a right to exist, and to be treated in a neighborly fashion, by their neighbors.  That needs to be an easy point of agreement, before I support any of it.





Would it not follow that israel should act in a neighborly fashion?

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Do you support a Palestinian State? - 9/20/2011 8:02:01 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

the Egyptians were a large empire with a predilection for building huge stone cities and temples in very arid environments, which helped preserve the writing, and covering them in writing.


Are you suggesting that the area known as egypt today has the same climate as that same area of 4000+ years ago?

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Do you support a Palestinian State? - 9/20/2011 8:03:50 AM   
thompsonx


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Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

There needs to be a mutual negotiated peace agreement that includes borders before they should be admitted to the UN…How can you responsibly admit a state without knowing the limits of their control or the location of their borders?


That avenue has been tried for the past 40 some years to no avail.
If not now when?

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Do you support a Palestinian State? - 9/20/2011 8:16:14 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

That avenue has been tried for the past 40 some years to no avail.
If not now when?


When the actions of the UN are used to solve the problem rather than exasperate it. Making Palestine a state will not help to make peace in the region.

The UN in its present configuration and leadership is totally useless and has not solved or resolved any conflict anywhere in the world.

The problem of Israel and Palestine can only be solved by a good faith negotiated peace between the two peoples. If it were not for the interference of other world powers over the years…including the UN and the US… this conflict would have been settled.

Butch


< Message edited by kdsub -- 9/20/2011 8:17:55 AM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Do you support a Palestinian State? - 9/20/2011 8:22:43 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

That avenue has been tried for the past 40 some years to no avail.
If not now when?


When the actions of the UN are used to solve the problem rather than exasperate it. Making Palestine a state will not help to make peace in the region.

The UN in its present configuration and leadership is totally useless and has not solved or resolved any conflict anywhere in the world.

The problem of Israel and Palestine can only be solved by a good faith negotiated peace between the two peoples. If it were not for the interference of other world powers over the years…including the UN and the US… this conflict would have been settled.

Butch




I asked you a question and you give me canned rhetoric. Your sollution has been tried for more than 40 years with no success yet you keep pimping it. Why?

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Do you support a Palestinian State? - 9/20/2011 8:26:07 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

When the actions of the UN are used to solve the problem rather than exasperate it. Making Palestine a state will not help to make peace in the region.


You know this because it has been tried and found wanting?
If palestine is a member of the u.n. it will then have standing in that body.
You are aware of the purpose of the u.n. are you not?
This is the very reason it was instituted.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Do you support a Palestinian State? - 9/20/2011 8:26:47 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		^  hmmm.   what do you expect on a fight that has been on for 4000 years?

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Do you support a Palestinian State? - 9/20/2011 8:28:45 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

The UN in its present configuration and leadership is totally useless and has not solved or resolved any conflict anywhere in the world.


What changes would you institute to make functional?

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Do you support a Palestinian State? - 9/20/2011 8:31:19 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Your sollution has been tried for more than 40 years with no success yet you keep pimping it. Why?


I ask you then.... how will making Palestine a member of the United Nations solve your, incorrect number of years…as usual, 40 year problem?

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Do you support a Palestinian State? - 9/20/2011 8:35:42 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

What changes would you institute to make functional?


Reducing the powers of the Security Council...specifically veto powers. Then depend on the support of member nations to enforce its resolutions.

I may not agree with its decisions but I and all nations on earth would have to respect them.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Do you support a Palestinian State? - 9/20/2011 8:52:20 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Your sollution has been tried for more than 40 years with no success yet you keep pimping it. Why?


I ask you then.... how will making Palestine a member of the United Nations solve your, incorrect number of years…as usual, 40 year problem?

Butch



Since I said more than 40 years and you feel that is incorrect please tell me why you think this has been going on for less than 40 years.
The reason that making them a member of the u.n. is helpful is that it gives them standing in the u.n.
The resolution of differences between and among member states is one of the reasons the u.n. exists.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Do you support a Palestinian State? - 9/20/2011 8:58:57 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

What changes would you institute to make functional?


Reducing the powers of the Security Council...specifically veto powers. Then depend on the support of member nations to enforce its resolutions.

I may not agree with its decisions but I and all nations on earth would have to respect them.

The u.n. does nothing that the u.s. does not approve.
You might want to read churchil's comments concerning the formation of the u.n. and his reasoning for the powerws given the security council. Easiest place to find them in one place would be his tome on "ww2. I am not convinced by his arguements as I am not convinced by yours but it would be interesting to see the "big boys" loose their grip on the big stick of the veto.

Butch


(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Do you support a Palestinian State? - 9/20/2011 8:59:30 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		More than 40 years my friend...damn use the search engine...Now please document ONE UN resolution that has solved a difference between member or non-member states.

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 40
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