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RE: So Religious Nuts, help me understand your crazines... - 9/3/2011 10:27:16 PM   
farglebargle


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Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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quote:

There are all too many within our country who wish to change the lives of others… insisting that they live within only the “politically accepted” perspective and these people are actively attempting to do away with the inherent values and beliefs that made our nation great.


You really should have lead with that, it would have saved a lot of time.

Please enumerate these 'inherent values and beliefs' to which you refer? Would they be the the self-evident truths, all men are created equal, and endowed by their creator with inalienable rights, or some other ones?

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Faltron)
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RE: So Religious Nuts, help me understand your crazines... - 9/3/2011 10:31:09 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Faltron

Re: So Religious Nuts, help me understand your craziness...

There are always extremists in any group... but within the group known as liberals...

>blink<

K.


Yeah. I got that impression too...

Here's an example of the legislation is blocking the liberal extremists from imposing their lifestyle on everyone:

H.R. 577 – Vision Care for Kids Act – Of course, this would provide eyesight screening for children who do not have insurance that covers this, and help provide them with glasses. Seriously, this is, at most, about $250-300 per year , at most, for the children with bad eyesight; how cheap are Republicans?

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: So Religious Nuts, help me understand your crazines... - 9/3/2011 10:32:33 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

There are always extremists in any group... but within the group known as liberals there are far too many who seem to justify any and all of their own actions by any means they can prescribe to... even when there is no honor in what they say and do… and especially in the way they behave. They feel and act superior to any who walk a different path while claiming to be the supporters of different paths.... an oxymoron I do believe.


Again, elaborate, please. Because I consider myself liberal, yet I do not demand anyone follow my beliefs.... just the law of the land until that law is changed.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: So Religious Nuts, help me understand your crazines... - 9/3/2011 10:35:18 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		For both sides of the isle... if you keep someone in poverty you have a better chance of controlling them.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: So Religious Nuts, help me understand your crazines... - 9/3/2011 10:53:27 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
If abortion is murder, and a doctor and mother conspire to and commit murder, why wouldn't you want both of them executed for their crime of murder?

I can't help you with "nuts" (though I see one did answer your thread) but just a thought from My semi-rational self.

First off, that's a pretty big "if" there.  I give you credit where it's due for going with the term 'murder' rather than 'kill'.  As far as I know, we don't have any clue as to how God feels about the termination of a pregnancy.  There isn't a single word in the bible about a non viable fetus because people had no concept of such a thing at the time of the writing.  The bible, even if it was the word of God was still written by men of that particular day and age and there could be no possible way for them to comprehend such matters with the level of medical and worldly knowledge that they had at the time.

Where it gets kind of complicated is the laws of the land bit.  There are many passages throughout that lead Me to believe that we are supposed to abide by the laws that govern our society.  The example here is a good one because laws on the matter have changed over time.  Case in point, neither person in the scenario is breaking the law of the land.

One of the many things that is bigger than Me and I fully hope God sorts it all out in his own due time.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: So Religious Nuts, help me understand your crazines... - 9/3/2011 11:01:09 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
If abortion is murder, and a doctor and mother conspire to and commit murder, why wouldn't you want both of them executed for their crime of murder?

I can't help you with "nuts" (though I see one did answer your thread) but just a thought from My semi-rational self.

First off, that's a pretty big "if" there.  I give you credit where it's due for going with the term 'murder' rather than 'kill'.  As far as I know, we don't have any clue as to how God feels about the termination of a pregnancy. 




Ever hear the term 'quickening'?




_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: So Religious Nuts, help me understand your crazines... - 9/3/2011 11:09:55 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
Ever hear the term 'quickening'?

Yes, I have.  (I should probably point out that I have two children.)

I don't, however, understand how it relates to your debate.  There is no definitive answer to knowing if any perceived movement at say, eight weeks gestation is actual fetal movement (highly unlikely due to limited formation) or just plain gas.

If anybody wants to show Me chapter and verse of where God covers a fart in the bible, I'll be glad to listen.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: So Religious Nuts, help me understand your crazines... - 9/3/2011 11:11:45 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Ever hear the term 'quickening'?


Mine didnt happen until I was 5 1/2 months pregnant. Its different for each woman.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: So Religious Nuts, help me understand your crazines... - 9/3/2011 11:19:34 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
Ever hear the term 'quickening'?

Yes, I have.  (I should probably point out that I have two children.)

I don't, however, understand how it relates to your debate.  There is no definitive answer to knowing if any perceived movement at say, eight weeks gestation is actual fetal movement (highly unlikely due to limited formation) or just plain gas.



Well, my point is, in our religion, until the fetus is ensoulled at the quickening, there's no huge moral issue about an abortion.

Now, it does turn out that the bible does speak to killing fetuses... Embryos even...

(KJV)

Exodus 21:12 He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.

Exodus 21:22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

In other words: Killing a person outside of the womb warrants the death penalty ( or exile, see Exodus 21:13), but killing a fetus is punishable by a fine



< Message edited by farglebargle -- 9/3/2011 11:20:15 PM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: So Religious Nuts, help me understand your crazines... - 9/3/2011 11:22:01 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		yes, as the judge determines... which according to law as it stands, abortion is legal up to a certain point.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: So Religious Nuts, help me understand your crazines... - 9/3/2011 11:46:46 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
Well, my point is, in our religion, until the fetus is ensoulled at the quickening, there's no huge moral issue about an abortion.

Is it "our" religion?  Honestly, I wasn't aware. 

quote:

Now, it does turn out that the bible does speak to killing fetuses... Embryos even...

(KJV)

Exodus 21:12 He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.

I won't give you this one.  It specifies "a man".  It's too far a stretch for My tastes. 

quote:

Exodus 21:22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

I think we are interpreting this in two different ways.  I have always thought of this as a particular action (strive) to intend malice should she be carrying the child of her own free will.  In other words, a pregnancy terminated through an act that wasn't the will of the mother.

What this is saying to Me is that an injury is caused that the woman lives, but the fetus dies (yet no mischief follow). 

Should such an attack against a pregnant woman violent enough in nature to cause her wanted pregnancy to be lost, the family of said woman may have an influence on judicial proceedings (according to the husband's will lay upon him) during such sentencing for a crime.

The attacker (and he) will be sentenced (shall pay) through the judicial system (as the judges determine).

quote:

In other words: Killing a person outside of the womb warrants the death penalty ( or exile, see Exodus 21:13), but killing a fetus is punishable by a fine

I couldn't say.  Perhaps this is the very clue that states that a  viable, living, breathing human being is seen differently than a fetus. 


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: So Religious Nuts, help me understand your crazines... - 9/4/2011 12:30:28 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Fargle, do you have any Leftist Nut friends? Ask them the same question, it's parallel thinking.

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"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to farglebargle)
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RE: So Religious Nuts, help me understand your crazines... - 9/4/2011 2:24:35 AM   
HannahLynHeather


Posts: 2950
Joined: 4/4/2011
From: where it's at
Status: offline
quote:

I think abortion is murder. I think the mother and the doctor, and the society that raised them, all conspire to commit a murder, whether they believe that is what they are doing or no. I believe that it should be illegal, but, I do not believe they should be murdered, because, murder is wrong.
it's not murder so fuck off. it can't be murder because it's still inside the mother.

quote:

However, if the father rushed into the room and beat up the doctor, then dragged the woman off and kept her hostage, a well fed and well cared for hostage, until the baby was born and then kept the baby, I think he shouldn't be labeled a criminal for being a caring father who is protecting his own child, either.
that's ok, i won't label him a criminal, i'll just blow his fucking brains out for kidnapping and torture. her womb, not his -  her business, not his.

quote:

I don't believe there is a valid excuse to abort a living baby, nor is there one for creating many fertilized eggs and then after they are fertilized throwing them in the trash.
too fucking bad. my womb, not yours - my business, not yours.

< Message edited by HannahLynHeather -- 9/4/2011 2:26:50 AM >

_____________________________

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fuck a duck ~w. disney

My Twitter: http://twitter.com/HannahFuck

i hope you enjoyed the post, and as always my friends....have a nice day

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RE: So Religious Nuts, help me understand your crazines... - 9/4/2011 2:30:50 AM   
HannahLynHeather


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Joined: 4/4/2011
From: where it's at
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quote:

What real evidence that this guy even IS the father of this baby?
doesn't fucking matter if he is or not, he's got fuck all to do with the decision.

_____________________________

clique? i don't need no stinking clique!

fuck a duck ~w. disney

My Twitter: http://twitter.com/HannahFuck

i hope you enjoyed the post, and as always my friends....have a nice day

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RE: So Religious Nuts, help me understand your crazines... - 9/4/2011 8:22:17 AM   
Kaliko


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Joined: 9/25/2010
Status: offline 		FR ~

I used to feel that abortion was okay. I find as I get older (and, possibly having a child has something to do with it as well) that I have a different reverence for life...all life. I used to think that those who opposed abortion were religious fanatics who never had to face an unwanted pregnancy, or idealists who refused to face the realities of the world. Now? I feel abortion, as well as other instances in which life has been devalued and liberties taken away, are the most important issues that one must come to their own peace with. I'm not into any organized religion and I have grown up in a family and a society that tells me it's okay to have an abortion. But my heart tells me that ultimately, in some way, we will be judged for our actions. Not punished, necessarily, but that how we treat the delicate lives of others does, indeed, play a role in our life after life, whatever it may be.

I would never judge anyone for having an abortion. I am here in the same society that they are, and I can understand how it is all too easy to think that it really is a woman's right. I wouldn't blame anyone for making the best decision they feel they could make at the time. But I don't believe that it really should be the option it has become.

ETA - Hmm... that really had nothing to do with the OP's question. So...no. I don't feel they should be executed for their crime because, far as I know, it's not actually considered a crime.



< Message edited by Kaliko -- 9/4/2011 8:30:15 AM >

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RE: So Religious Nuts, help me understand your crazines... - 9/4/2011 9:20:39 AM   
SouthernLady56


Posts: 1
Joined: 4/4/2011
Status: offline 		uhhh ok , i just went to  Bible and read what you quoted , it  may be in the wording but mine says and I quote "If two men are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth  prematurely  but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined  whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows " that was 22 of chapter 21 in Exdous .  now for versus 23  "But if there is serious injury , you take a life for a life" 

So in the biblical case if the child is seriously injured you are suppose to kill whomever hurt/killed the child . at least that is how i am reading it .      Edit to add the word went


< Message edited by SouthernLady56 -- 9/4/2011 9:35:29 AM >

(in reply to Kaliko)
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RE: So Religious Nuts, help me understand your crazines... - 9/4/2011 10:08:14 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		"If two men are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows "

What two men are fighting?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to SouthernLady56)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: So Religious Nuts, help me understand your crazines... - 9/4/2011 4:20:44 PM   
DeviantlyD


Posts: 4382
Joined: 5/26/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SouthernLady56

uhhh ok , i just went to  Bible and read what you quoted , it  may be in the wording but mine says and I quote "If two men are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth  prematurely  but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined  whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows " that was 22 of chapter 21 in Exdous .  now for versus 23  "But if there is serious injury , you take a life for a life" 

So in the biblical case if the child is seriously injured you are suppose to kill whomever hurt/killed the child . at least that is how i am reading it .      Edit to add the word went



That sounds like an edited version...updated, if you will. So, the original words of the Bible, are, yet again, translated. I wonder how far away those words are from the original. I often think of some of the more recent editions of the Bible as being akin to that childhood game where everyone sits in a circle and one person whispers a phrase to the next person and they whisper it to the next and so on until the last person receives the whispered phrase and speaks it out loud - it's often hilariously different than the original.

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RE: So Religious Nuts, help me understand your crazines... - 9/4/2011 5:12:12 PM   
HannahLynHeather


Posts: 2950
Joined: 4/4/2011
From: where it's at
Status: offline
quote:

I wonder how far away those words are from the original.

כב  וְכִי-יִנָּצוּ אֲנָשִׁים, וְנָגְפוּ אִשָּׁה הָרָה וְיָצְאוּ יְלָדֶיהָ,
וְלֹא יִהְיֶה, אָסוֹן--עָנוֹשׁ יֵעָנֵשׁ, כַּאֲשֶׁר יָשִׁית עָלָיו
בַּעַל הָאִשָּׁה, וְנָתַן, בִּפְלִלִים.

there ya go, see for yourself.

<22 And if men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart, and yet no harm follow, he shall be surely fined, according as the woman's husband shall lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.>

_____________________________

clique? i don't need no stinking clique!

fuck a duck ~w. disney

My Twitter: http://twitter.com/HannahFuck

i hope you enjoyed the post, and as always my friends....have a nice day

(in reply to DeviantlyD)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: So Religious Nuts, help me understand your crazines... - 9/4/2011 7:00:00 PM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		I'm curious ;

quote:

I'm not the one trying to pass Christian Sharia Law, am I?


In post 5

and;

quote:

The Christian-Taliban wants the doctors put to death.


In post 8

Why do you attach the words; Sharia and Taliban to Christians in your country, are you saying they are one in the same, or is it these wars fought overseas against the originators of these terms have blurred the divide between what it is you in the US believe and what bullshit can be made from applying such words to your country's majority belief ?

In which case if it is you think they are one in the same, or it is now becoming apparent that those ideals which are fought against overseas and not that much different from one's national belief, why are people still being sent over there to kill and be killed, for surely the problem exists at home not abroad ?

Or is it you don't know what you are talking about, and just seek to apply western believed distasteful terms to cause upset and harm to others ?

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 40
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