Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

Calling on the experts


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> Calling on the experts Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Calling on the experts - 8/24/2011 6:04:11 PM   
StrangerThan


Posts: 1515
Joined: 4/25/2008
Status: offline
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20110823_11_A12_TAHLEQ813989&rss_lnk=11

Seems the Cherokee Nation expelled descendents of former slaves from the tribe, terminating their citizenship and consequently, their benefits.

Wikipedia says the Cherokee number about 300,000. Making them the second largest tribe. I figured this story would land somewhere here today, given those who see nothing but race. So tell me, is it overt racism? Personally, I can't see why it isn't, given that inclusion is about that very subject. Then again, for most tribes, it always has been.

The question is, is it acceptable?


_____________________________


--'Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform' - Mark Twain
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Calling on the experts - 8/24/2011 7:48:37 PM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

The question is, is it acceptable?



I am unsure WHY they decided this. It seems strange for it to be an issue nearly 150 years after the fact.

I think that it is wrong, given the article.

But, I think that it is their right as a sovereign nation.

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to StrangerThan)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Calling on the experts - 8/24/2011 8:18:34 PM   
HannahLynHeather


Posts: 2950
Joined: 4/4/2011
From: where it's at
Status: offline
quote:

The question is, is it acceptable?
no of course not. what a stupid fucking question.

< Message edited by HannahLynHeather -- 8/24/2011 8:19:43 PM >


_____________________________

clique? i don't need no stinking clique!

fuck a duck ~w. disney

My Twitter: http://twitter.com/HannahFuck

i hope you enjoyed the post, and as always my friends....have a nice day

(in reply to StrangerThan)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Calling on the experts - 8/24/2011 8:21:27 PM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

quote:

The question is, is it acceptable?
no of course not. what a stupid fucking question.



Serious question: Why do you think this?

I know why I think so, but I would like to know why you think so.

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to HannahLynHeather)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Calling on the experts - 8/24/2011 8:32:01 PM   
HannahLynHeather


Posts: 2950
Joined: 4/4/2011
From: where it's at
Status: offline
because those people are being denied their membership based on nothing of their doing. they were members when they were born so it's fucking wrong to strip them of it because of who their ancestor was. that's retroactive lawmaking of a sort and so it's fucked up.

it's also fucking racist as hell, but fuck what do you expect. but that leads into a the whole fucking native issue, and my opinions on that are probably not palatable either.

_____________________________

clique? i don't need no stinking clique!

fuck a duck ~w. disney

My Twitter: http://twitter.com/HannahFuck

i hope you enjoyed the post, and as always my friends....have a nice day

(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Calling on the experts - 8/24/2011 8:47:38 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
It's about the money from the casino's, pure and simple.  The only color involved is green.  The tribes are working very hard to keep the numbers low, in terms of who can lay claim to a share of the income.  Our family historian has run into one dead end after another, trying to trace my grandmother's ancestry, even though good records exist from the reservation she lived on as a child.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to StrangerThan)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Calling on the experts - 8/24/2011 8:54:36 PM   
HannahLynHeather


Posts: 2950
Joined: 4/4/2011
From: where it's at
Status: offline
ok, well there's the reason the fuckheads are doing it. it's still fucking wrong, it was wrong before i knew that and it's still wrong. the why makes no fucking difference. wrong is wrong.

_____________________________

clique? i don't need no stinking clique!

fuck a duck ~w. disney

My Twitter: http://twitter.com/HannahFuck

i hope you enjoyed the post, and as always my friends....have a nice day

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Calling on the experts - 8/24/2011 9:10:26 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

It's about the money from the casino's, pure and simple.  The only color involved is green.  The tribes are working very hard to keep the numbers low, in terms of who can lay claim to a share of the income.  Our family historian has run into one dead end after another, trying to trace my grandmother's ancestry, even though good records exist from the reservation she lived on as a child.



its never been any different.

the gubafia is the same way.

the US has never stood by any agreement it made with anyone.

Its why we can wipe our asses with the rights they pay lip service to


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Calling on the experts - 8/24/2011 9:11:02 PM   
EternalHoH


Posts: 791
Joined: 5/30/2010
Status: offline
Of course, we enable their behavior when we patronize the casinos. Just like we enable China when we shop at Walmart.





(in reply to HannahLynHeather)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Calling on the experts - 8/24/2011 9:48:48 PM   
HannahLynHeather


Posts: 2950
Joined: 4/4/2011
From: where it's at
Status: offline
so don't go to the fucking casino. where's the problem?

_____________________________

clique? i don't need no stinking clique!

fuck a duck ~w. disney

My Twitter: http://twitter.com/HannahFuck

i hope you enjoyed the post, and as always my friends....have a nice day

(in reply to EternalHoH)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Calling on the experts - 8/24/2011 9:58:05 PM   
heartcream


Posts: 3044
Joined: 5/9/2007
From: Psychoalphadiscobetabioaquadoloop
Status: offline
I hope the Natives get back everything that was ever taken from them and more. White Lizard Man sucks ASS and should get the freak out the way now and forever. The Natives of this land were duped, lied to, and taken for everything. It took 400 years to pretty much totally decimate the amazing culture they had when the worms arrived. The Natives brought them back to health and showed them how to live in this land and the Fucktards bent them all over a barrel until all that beauty and culture was smashed down to zero. Hiawatha predicted before their flat asses showed up.

_____________________________

"Exaggerate the essential, leave the obvious vague." Vincent Van Gogh

I'd Rather Be With You

Every single line means something.
Jean-Michel Basquiat



(in reply to HannahLynHeather)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Calling on the experts - 8/24/2011 10:01:08 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
How someone's race is defined is not by ownership, but by ancestry and bloodlines.

The people being excluded were never Native Americans to begin with. It isn't the same as the ancestors of american slaves because people in the US can become citizens, and if born here are citizens. If someone crossed the border onto a Native American reservation to give birth to their child, it wouldn't make that child a Native American and a member of that tribe.

While I don't disagree that the Cherokees are looking at who benefits from the money made from the casinos, the green goes both ways. Native Americans get many federal benefits and I'm sure the people being excluded would like to continue to get those benefits.

My family's ancestry on my mother's side can be traced back to colonial times, and includes a marriage to a Souix Indian. Over the years, that ancestry has been diluted by many different marriages. I am not entitled to those benefits, nor do I expect to be.

An Italian living in Paris would not be considered French just because they lived there for 15 years. Granted, this is a hundred plus years later, but it doesn't change the fact that the excluded don't have Native American blood.

(in reply to StrangerThan)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Calling on the experts - 8/24/2011 10:02:26 PM   
HannahLynHeather


Posts: 2950
Joined: 4/4/2011
From: where it's at
Status: offline
oh well, sucks to be them don't it.

_____________________________

clique? i don't need no stinking clique!

fuck a duck ~w. disney

My Twitter: http://twitter.com/HannahFuck

i hope you enjoyed the post, and as always my friends....have a nice day

(in reply to heartcream)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Calling on the experts - 8/25/2011 1:27:43 AM   
FirstQuaker


Posts: 787
Joined: 3/19/2011
Status: offline
For better or worse, the Cherokee nation made the treaty at the end of the US Civil War, in response to their former slave owning and hopes for a better future.

quote:

ARTICLE 9. The Cherokee Nation having, voluntarily, in February, eighteen hundred and sixty-three, by an act of the national council, forever abolished slavery, hereby covenant and agree that never hereafter shall either slavery or involuntary servitude exist in their nation otherwise than in the punishment of crime, whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, in accordance with laws applicable to all the members of said tribe alike. They further agree that all freedmen who have been liberated by voluntary act of their former owners or by law, as well as all free colored persons who were in the country at the commencement of the rebellion, and are now residents therein, or who may return within six months, and their descendants, shall have all the rights of native Cherokees: Provided, That owners of slaves so emancipated in the Cherokee Nation shall never receive any compensation or pay for the slaves so emancipated.


TREATY WITH THE CHEROKEE, 1866.

And that was before casinos, or the Oklahoma land rush, or massive federal monies, or any other thing.

After a 150 years of detached reflection, it is a bit late to decide they made a mistake.

Interestingly, Obama is part Cherokee, in addition to being part Irish, British and Kenyan..


(in reply to HannahLynHeather)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Calling on the experts - 8/25/2011 1:36:34 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
~FR

And you cant understand why?

Election.


_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to FirstQuaker)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Calling on the experts - 8/25/2011 3:41:20 AM   
StrangerThan


Posts: 1515
Joined: 4/25/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FirstQuaker

For better or worse, the Cherokee nation made the treaty at the end of the US Civil War, in response to their former slave owning and hopes for a better future.

quote:

ARTICLE 9. The Cherokee Nation having, voluntarily, in February, eighteen hundred and sixty-three, by an act of the national council, forever abolished slavery, hereby covenant and agree that never hereafter shall either slavery or involuntary servitude exist in their nation otherwise than in the punishment of crime, whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, in accordance with laws applicable to all the members of said tribe alike. They further agree that all freedmen who have been liberated by voluntary act of their former owners or by law, as well as all free colored persons who were in the country at the commencement of the rebellion, and are now residents therein, or who may return within six months, and their descendants, shall have all the rights of native Cherokees: Provided, That owners of slaves so emancipated in the Cherokee Nation shall never receive any compensation or pay for the slaves so emancipated.


TREATY WITH THE CHEROKEE, 1866.

And that was before casinos, or the Oklahoma land rush, or massive federal monies, or any other thing.

After a 150 years of detached reflection, it is a bit late to decide they made a mistake.

Interestingly, Obama is part Cherokee, in addition to being part Irish, British and Kenyan..




Some history... the issue has been at debate almost since the treaty was signed. So it's not just a casino thing. Efforts to limit or remove freedmen from the tribe have existed since the late 1870's - early 1880's. The treaty was pushed by the federal government, so it wasn't just a lone act of the Cherokee to address the prior status of slaves.

I grew up in Western North Carolina. It was hard to find anyone at the time who didn't have some Cherokee blood involved in their history.



_____________________________


--'Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform' - Mark Twain

(in reply to FirstQuaker)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Calling on the experts - 8/25/2011 4:40:06 AM   
FirstQuaker


Posts: 787
Joined: 3/19/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirstQuaker

For better or worse, the Cherokee nation made the treaty at the end of the US Civil War, in response to their former slave owning and hopes for a better future.

quote:

ARTICLE 9. The Cherokee Nation having, voluntarily, in February, eighteen hundred and sixty-three, by an act of the national council, forever abolished slavery, hereby covenant and agree that never hereafter shall either slavery or involuntary servitude exist in their nation otherwise than in the punishment of crime, whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, in accordance with laws applicable to all the members of said tribe alike. They further agree that all freedmen who have been liberated by voluntary act of their former owners or by law, as well as all free colored persons who were in the country at the commencement of the rebellion, and are now residents therein, or who may return within six months, and their descendants, shall have all the rights of native Cherokees: Provided, That owners of slaves so emancipated in the Cherokee Nation shall never receive any compensation or pay for the slaves so emancipated.


TREATY WITH THE CHEROKEE, 1866.

And that was before casinos, or the Oklahoma land rush, or massive federal monies, or any other thing.

After a 150 years of detached reflection, it is a bit late to decide they made a mistake.

Interestingly, Obama is part Cherokee, in addition to being part Irish, British and Kenyan..




Some history... the issue has been at debate almost since the treaty was signed. So it's not just a casino thing. Efforts to limit or remove freedmen from the tribe have existed since the late 1870's - early 1880's. The treaty was pushed by the federal government, so it wasn't just a lone act of the Cherokee to address the prior status of slaves.

I grew up in Western North Carolina. It was hard to find anyone at the time who didn't have some Cherokee blood involved in their history.




Actually the African slavery was an issue internal to the Cherokees, even before the United States was founded, with some clans for and some against this thing, and the full-blooded Cherokee usually against it, while the Metis were often the proponents.

Cherokees even had their own Civil War to go along with that fought by the rest of the US, notice the date of the Cherokee emancipation proclamation.

And the Cherokees were divided on this chattel  slavery going back into the 1700s at least. An accounting of this background is here - Slavery and Native Americans in British North America and the United States: 1600 to 1865

And certainly the Cherokees were not the only ones facing this issue, the Seminoles, Creeks, and Choctaw all also dealt with this issue in a similar manner at the time, while the Chickasaw refused to make their freed slaves tribal members.

But this European idea of chattel slavery is a gift that just keeps on giving, and now this evil returns to plague the tenth generation of those who thought it was a good thing at the time.

So what then is the answer? Are you gonna kick out people who have been part of your band for 10 some generations? What happens if Alabama or Texas decide a similar thing regarding their African Americans, (or the local Amerindians as far as that goes) perhaps the Perry ideas on state's rights allow him to think the US government forced Texas into a similar treaty or two, and now is the time to rectify it?

But in actuality the US broke the treaty way back when , most of Oklahoma was supposed to be Cherokee lands, and the US fixed that minor problem, when there was oil waiting to to be pumped.

But in another one or two hundred years many of the United States public will likely be Metis with some droplets of Cherokee blood at the rate things are going. What then, when the some nice chunk of the US is part Cherokee?

(in reply to StrangerThan)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Calling on the experts - 8/25/2011 5:32:15 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
Last I checked neither Alabama nor Texas were Sovereign Nations

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to FirstQuaker)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Calling on the experts - 8/25/2011 5:42:58 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
Interesting subject tho, thankyou for some much needed info. Yes Ive had quite the education from some native friends Ive made over the years in Canada, but the US history is vague at best.


_____________________________

(•_•)
<) )╯SUCH
/ \

\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
/ \

(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
/ \

Duchess Of Dissent
Dont Hate Love

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 19
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> Calling on the experts Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.172