Kink vs Abuse (Full Version)

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EmeraldQueen -> Kink vs Abuse (8/24/2011 9:16:49 AM)

I know that my profile is listed as Dominant, but I've slowly been being converted to the switch side of things. But what Im getting at, is that myself and my play partner have been experimenting with me on the receiving side of impact play.

Several years ago, I was in a physically and mentally abusive relationship. I had just turned 18, and thought this guy was the love of my life. He warped my way of thinking that my parents were wrong and wanted to keep us apart. That I was a horrible, selfish person for not sleeping with him, and that hitting and choking me was all part of his wa of showing love. He REALLY made be belive that I was HIS property and there was no way out unless he released me.

Due to this, I have very high anxiety and am easily stressed out and panic. One of the main reaons why me and my boy keep things at a slow, highly monitored pace. If I feel a scene is too intense, he slams on the breaks and we try to figure something out.

But what Im getting at is, where do you draw the line? We had been doing a scene with some caning, and I had been the receiver. I had to keep forcing myself to remember that I could stop at any time, but half of me wanted to, but the other half kep trying to remind me to just keep going and take it and it would be over soon.

How do you get over those mental blocks? I've done therapy, I do meditation. Alot of things to try and clear my mind. And I also think its vital for ME to know, incase I cross that line knowingly and accidentally hurt some one that might be in the same position Im in.

Thoughts and Ideas please? This community has only yeilded great things, so I hope I can gather some insight.



NakedSenses -> RE: Kink vs Abuse (8/24/2011 10:09:52 AM)

"How do you get over those mental blocks?"

In a word: slowly. It will take time.
I have to think that you had true Panic Attacks.
"Experiencing a panic attack has been said to be one of the most intensely frightening, upsetting and uncomfortable experiences of a person's life and may take days to initially recover from." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_Attacks)
It seems that, based on your description of your partner, and in particular the "he slams on the brakes" phrase, he is about as good as it gets for helping you to find your self-confidence and self-awareness again while actively "on the bottom side" in a scene.

It seems that we keep "playing the tapes in our memory" over and over again in our lives as part of being human. For me, re-recording those tapes has been most helpful at some times, but not all.  The psychotherapy and the meditation are good palliatives, but they'll never "cure the disease".

Facing, and defeating, these demons that can invade our souls sometimes requires that we go back into our own hell and seek them out on their own ground. But this time, your partner is on your side, and not one of the actual demons in disguise like this male who injured you, and badly.

Using a carefully planned and performed role play that starts with "an old memory tape", you can play it forward until you reach a critical point. Then this time, you choose the right path, and experience the reward rather than the suffering. At that same time, you send that demon away forever in your mind. And should that demon ever try to sneak back into your life, you can "play the new tape" in your memory, and this time you win once more.

Eventually "the old tape" should fade away, if all goes well, and you'll be free forever. And perhaps you will also be able to help others who may have become victims of the same kinds of harmful acts that were done to you.
Some philosophy types will say, "Never give advice. The wise don't need it and the fools won't heed it." But as I suffer from clinical Anxiety Disorder (with Panic Attacks), I will hazard to reach out to you in sympathy and support. Good luck!
As always, I urge seeking professional guidance before attempting self-remedies such as this.



DesFIP -> RE: Kink vs Abuse (8/24/2011 1:48:31 PM)

When we hit a trigger, that causes a panic attack - his response is to drop it for about six months. He doesn't keep pushing me to do it, he doesn't even bring it up. He allows me to think about it, to ask him questions, to do research if necessary. Then we try it again with some minor changes.

Usually we eventually find that as long as we change one part of it, I'll be fine. So since you were forced into this, and told this was your only worth, would it help if your boyfriend was giving you positive reinforcement during this? If he told you how beautiful you were, how much he appreciates you trying this for him, and so on. Plus lots of kisses and caresses during it.

I find it's easier to take stuff if it isn't just the implement but if his other hand strokes my back, holds my hand. Having no physical contact is lonely, being petted is anything but.



EmeraldQueen -> RE: Kink vs Abuse (8/24/2011 2:02:43 PM)

Dorn is probably the most physically and mentally attentive man I have ever been with. He take things step by step, listens to the noises I make and is extremely hypersensitive to any hand gestures I make, as that is our secondary form of communication if my mouth is "occupied".

Me taking things froma submissive side is a massive leap for me, due to allowing myself to be physically bound and dependent on someone else. It's not something that I'm used to, and Dorn is incredibly attentive to my needs. But all the physical and mental reassurance isn't enough sometimes, and a scene must be stopped so I can regulate my breathing, stop the shaking, and I'm provided with as much cuddling as I desire.

I'm still in therapy to get over the mental damage, as certain sights, touches or smells will set off a trigger sometimes. I just desperately want to get over that segment of my life, and I'm afraid of having to give up my love of the life style...what makes me, ME.



CynthiaWVirginia -> RE: Kink vs Abuse (8/24/2011 2:42:58 PM)

EmeraldQueen, I sent mail on the other side concerning part of this issue along with a link.  In this post I will continue but on a more personal level.

I am one of the people here who has a past history of abuse, and this made it a lot more difficult for me to explore BDSM.  I have had many issues come up over the years, and my biggest one was defining kink vs abuse until I was satisfied with the boundaries.  I struggled so much with giving myself permission to enjoy hurting someone...which was funny because the men I tied up and flogged or whatever loved what I did to them and WANTED me to hurt them.  LOL, looking back now, it seems funny as heck.  Leaving welts, and then discovering my enjoyment for CBT...I was okay while doing it but then later on I would feel guilty and would think it to death.  What were my motives for doing that?  Was I becoming a monster and would I lose my conscience?  I know, kinda stupid now that I look back on it, but at the time I was struggling with past monsters and did not want to become one. 

I considered bottoming to learn more about being on the receiving end, but two problems came up with that.  There is nobody nearby that I could trust enough for this, and...seriously...I am no kind of a masochist.  I cannot possibly learn to understand how a sub feels when they are subspacing from a good flogging or whatever other than by observing and listening to how they feel.  I would be merely enduring pain and waiting for it to be over...and this would remind me too much of past abuse, when I was beaten so harshly and for so long that I felt my soul drift out of my body and hover near the ceiling.  Also, I have a very negative association with adrenaline...I hate scary movies and avoid them, and refuse to go on rollercoaster rides or similar rides that involve sheer drops, etc.  It will be a miracle if I ever bottom in some dungeon.

At the same time, before I have used an impact toy on a sub I have used it on myself first.  I can trust myself with these things. [:D]  (CBT has been especially hard for me to wade into...cuz I do not have male dangly bits.)

My sub understands panic attacks because he gets them too.  We watch out for each other.  Some types of play he has very negative association with...and I am writing over past bad memories that still hold a fear factor...like hair brushes and canes.  I do not whale the tar out of him with these, but get him very aroused first and then do light impacts while keeping him aroused.  I could not just tie him up and repeat the same memory and expect to get the new and improved results I want from him. [;)]

What has been giving me fits in this relationship is my vanilla side.  Because of past abuse, I stopped vanilla dating for a bit over twenty years.  I lost all interest and just kept busy with the rest of my life...I have lots of hobbies.  When I discovered D/s, it was great.  The relationships had clearly defined boundaries and I found the mutual trust very erotic.  I had no desire to risk wrecking a good thing by adding a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship into the mix.  With this one, I am trying to do that very thing because our compatibility is so great.  He is my sub, but at the same time we are vanilla dating and unless he gets me to fall in love with him...  (I am very slow to fall in love, btw.  It is not the love at first sight thing, but something that grows on me over time.  I am usually not even attracted at first to the guys I have fallen in love with, lol.  After I love them, they become beautiful and precious.)

quote:

How do you get over those mental blocks?

In baby steps.  By being painfully honest with each other.  By being creative about finding solutions, and being willing to patiently work at it over time.

Know how hard it was for me on our first date to tell him that his white shoes pushed bad buttons from my past and I could not stop my bad reaction?  It took me about an hour to finally risk speaking up.  We had known each other for four months but still I did not know how he would react.  Would he choose to see me as some broken/wounded person instead of seeing my strengths...  He asked if we could go to the mall after the steak house.  He told me that if his shoes would cause a problem with us getting closer together then he would rather get rid of them, that I was more important.  He sat there patiently, trying on shoes until I found the ones I liked on him.

The hardest thing I do...is take a step beyond D/s and kink...and in baby steps, start learning to trust the MAN I have collared.  This is extremely hard for me.  As I trust him more, my panic attacks have increased.  Not during the daytime, but triggered by boring type dreams and so I wake up during a panic attack, and have to handle feeling off balance and a bit agoraphobic for days afterward.  I never had this happen with past subs, our relationship gave me energy that almost eliminated panic attacks completely, as well as providing me with some of the energy I lost with my past chemos.  (I am a very low energy person.)

When/if we start having vanilla type sex, because of his size (and my extreme negative association with this), I am likely to have my PTSD flare up and have flashbacks at first, or maybe just get off lightly with panic attacks.  Because of my PTSD and scar tissue, he already knows that anal sex is "no way in Hell!" 

We will be working through many mental blocks over time, both his and my own.  I will be a major pain in the ass in more ways than one. [:D] 

quote:

But what Im getting at is, where do you draw the line? We had been doing a scene with some caning, and I had been the receiver. I had to keep forcing myself to remember that I could stop at any time, but half of me wanted to, but the other half kep trying to remind me to just keep going and take it and it would be over soon.

Because I am not a masochist, I have to wonder exactly what you are getting out of this.  It does not arouse you.  Does it make you feel more submissive, or are you just bottoming to gain empathy and understanding of what you dish out?  If it pushes submissive buttons and this is what you want, then it sounds like there is no problem.  If you are wanting more from this, then what is it that you need?  (These questions are rhetorical.  I only expect to hear what you wish to share.)  Are you trying to trigger panic attacks so that he can give you good aftercare, to rewrite over ugly memories?  Are you afraid of going feral and seriously hurting him if he pushed you too far? 

If you want to be taken down to this level http://www.collarchat.com/m_3683139/tm.htm then this link to a thread by SimplyMichael might be helpful.  If you are afraid of going feral and breaking his bones, be very well restrained first.  He is yours, so let him know what you need to get out of this, during the scene and afterward.  If you are trying to learn to enjoy this and explore masochism, I would advise backing down the intensity and doing this only after you are very aroused.  Do not go higher in intensity than your arousal can handle.

That last part is how I am helping my sub to deal with his past, as beatings/caning was for serious punishment, where he was gagged and screaming until he couldn't scream anymore.  It was not for funishment and never erotic.  He is so surprised that he likes what I do to him, and expected to only get enjoyment from submitting to me and just...enduring what I dished out just to please me.  Instead I am making him have orgasms from pain play alone and he dreams of taking more. [:D]   

Find out what you need from this...and TAKE it.  Sounds like you might need to find out if you are really a switch; a curious Domme who wants a taste of the other side; a Domme who is a masochist but does not feel submission during a scene; or if you want to make your sub rewrite over past ugly memories.  I hope that topping you does not mess with his headspace.  Be sure to talk things through with him.

(Epic post.  Sorry about that.) 



CynthiaWVirginia -> RE: Kink vs Abuse (8/24/2011 4:04:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldQueen
Me taking things froma submissive side is a massive leap for me, due to allowing myself to be physically bound and dependent on someone else. It's not something that I'm used to, and Dorn is incredibly attentive to my needs. But all the physical and mental reassurance isn't enough sometimes, and a scene must be stopped so I can regulate my breathing, stop the shaking, and I'm provided with as much cuddling as I desire.

I'm still in therapy to get over the mental damage, as certain sights, touches or smells will set off a trigger sometimes. I just desperately want to get over that segment of my life, and I'm afraid of having to give up my love of the life style...what makes me, ME.


Okay, I think I understand this better now.  **takes foot out of her mouth, lol**

But on the other hand, I don't.  Is Dorn a Dom?  I thought you were with a sub/boyfriend and were having him top you.  How you describe him makes it sound like he is wonderful for you and will help you work this all out. 

You have been fine with the lifestyle in Domme mode, why would you have to give up with the lifestyle?  Is he Dom, and if you cannot handle submitting to him then the both of you might need to keep this relationship vanilla?  That would be a little amusing, as I am having that problem but with the opposite spin, where we might have to give up vanilla and keep the lifestyle.

I have been dealing with panic attacks for over 25 years.  I wish there was some magic pill or some magical therapy, but the best progress I have made has been on my own.  I take the whole thing and break it apart into many separate components, and then, as in that book I used to read to my son when he was a toddler, Gregory the Terrible Eater, I add one small bad thing into something good, until I get used to it and it loses it's power over me.  (The shoes along with the facial hair and etc., were just too much to handle on a first date, I overloaded.)

This part from DesFIP was just lovely...
quote:

Usually we eventually find that as long as we change one part of it, I'll be fine. So since you were forced into this, and told this was your only worth, would it help if your boyfriend was giving you positive reinforcement during this? If he told you how beautiful you were, how much he appreciates you trying this for him, and so on. Plus lots of kisses and caresses during it.


With this man, you will see your true value over time.  The guy from your past had a lot of issues of his own, and unfortunately he took only from you what he needed...and tried to program you into not expecting better from a man.  Dorn is as different from him as a leach is from a unicorn.  I like how he treats you.  Be careful of expecting too much healing to happen too soon or you will be setting yourself up for a big fall.  He must love you the way you are, and you will be likely harder on yourself than he would want...I doubt he expects perfection.  Many of us find our partner's little quirks and broken places to be the most endearing...what makes them special and different from everyone else. 

When my sub is mentally self-punishing, I tell him that he needs to think about ME.  What should be important to him is how I see him...he is valuable, worthy, MINE, and I am happy with him...and not how he is viewing himself.  If he sees himself as less, then he is insulting my tastes and my judgment.  My mentor used to make me put a rubber band around my wrist and snap it on the top side (ouch) when I said or even thought any kind of self put-down.  Even if I said I was only human..."snap"  If he is happy with what you are giving to him, and he expects this not to be easy, why are you feeling bad about this?  Are you less patient with yourself...than he is?  Is it bothering him when you need a break and need some caretaking?  Maybe he likes being the one to help heal your wounds so that you feel more valuable in his eyes. 

I have all kinds of vanilla triggers, including some men's colognes.  I will let my sub know of each trigger as they come up and we will work on dealing with them in baby steps.  You are not alone, many of us have monsters in our closets in spite of counseling.

Sometimes, a little voice in the back of my mind tells me that I don't deserve this, that it cannot be true and that something ugly will happen.  This is fear talking, and past programming that we have to take a good hard look at, and then find ways to weaken the power it had over us.  My dad did to me what your boyfriend did to you...I learned that I was not valuable, that I was a nothing, unworthy of being loved...and to expect nothing...to be grateful for the moments when I wasn't being punished.  My dad and your boyfriend was wrong; they had damaged souls and could not help but cause damage to any relationship they were in. 

quote:

But all the physical and mental reassurance isn't enough sometimes, and a scene must be stopped so I can regulate my breathing, stop the shaking, and I'm provided with as much cuddling as I desire. 

It doesn't sound to me like he is unhappy with you.  I don't even see this as a wrecked scene, but an opportunity to give aftercare and to enjoy the deeper emotional bonding that takes place.  What you seem to see as failure on your part, where you have to stop...I see as your willingness to be pushed to the very edge of your abilities just to please him.  When my sub does this for me, I am so very proud of him and my heart melts.  There is no failure.



AcademyForSlaves -> RE: Kink vs Abuse (8/27/2011 1:38:35 PM)

Hi.

Only do what your comfortable with doing. There's no need to get used to something you don't feel good about doing. If you don't like it, you don't like it. Your play partner should always respect your limits and desires. If they don't then you might want to think about if that play partner is good for you. Choice is everything.

Hope this helps.



DomThoughts -> RE: Kink vs Abuse (8/28/2011 9:12:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldQueen

Dorn is probably the most physically and mentally attentive man I have ever been with. He take things step by step, listens to the noises I make and is extremely hypersensitive


and I'm afraid of having to give up my love of the life style...what makes me, ME.



Maybe you could look at it this way. You appear to have an exceptionally strong relationship with someone that you share a very deep respect, love and trust. (I'm rather envious!!)

I would simply say enjoy the relationship you've got, use the trust you have in each other to keep chipping away at the past.

One of the biggest problems that get reported in these relationships is lack of communication, you've got that, you've got someone who knows how to read you. I'm sure you know how rare that is already.

Playtime breaks down sometimes for everyone, it sounds like when it breaks for you you get the aftercare and then try to understand what happened. To me that sounds pretty close to perfection.

I don't know anything about you, or your situation, but it sounds like you've got a relationship that is strong enough to take you both wherever you want to take it. Maybe you'll become permanently submissive, maybe it will be once in a blue moon. Does it really matter as long as you love each other?

Know that he is at your side protecting you whenever these demons rise and I am confident you will be fine.

Take care
M



DomThoughts -> RE: Kink vs Abuse (8/28/2011 9:18:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AcademyForSlaves

Hi.

Only do what your comfortable with doing. There's no need to get used to something you don't feel good about doing. If you don't like it, you don't like it. Your play partner should always respect your limits and desires. If they don't then you might want to think about if that play partner is good for you. Choice is everything.

Hope this helps.

Did you read a completely different thread than the rest of us did? Where on earth did you get that from!!!!

Maybe try a more appropriate canned response next time!



AksaAbsalon -> RE: Kink vs Abuse (8/28/2011 9:34:23 AM)

The line is drawn at enjoyment or at actual agreed upon punishment. For the sake of play, it is always about enjoyment. When you panic, it is no longer enjoyable, so it should be stopped. However, I would suggest play that is of a longer duration, but with more breaks built in, to help prevent panic. Say, 5 or 10 good strokes, then stop, rest or do something else for a few minutes, then, 5 or 10 more. That way, you have time to reorient yourself without it being about you stopping the session out of feelings of mistrust, which are very understandable, but, which can cause havoc on a relationship, since most people don't like to be mistrusted, in the long run, even if they know it really is not all about them.
Another thing I would suggest is you directly asking for a specific number of strokes, with whatever you wish to be used. He's still in charge of how hard, but, you have the safety of fully understanding it is your choice. Taking turns could work, too, if he'd do it, because, psychologically speaking, it shows that he is not doing it because of any belief that he is better than you, but, only doing it for your mutual pleasure and benefit. Which you probably already know, somewhere in you, but, it needs to be reinforced, since all the bad things have had so much reinforcement already.

As far as if it is ever used for punishment, it is best to sit down at some totally other time, and, discuss what merits punishment, what punishment is most effective, and, how much punishment is merited for each offense. Then, of course, it should never be applied when either is angry, but, he should wait until he is calm and you are ready to submit yourself to corporal punishment, understanding that you did something wrong and that you must now follow your agreement.

However, that works best if there is equal punishment for when he does things wrong, too. So, if it is wrong for you to not have dinner on the table by 6 pm, and you get three strokes with a paddle for it, then, if he shows up at 6:15 pm with no good excuse, he should get three strokes with a paddle, or, maybe even five, since he is the one in charge and has set the rule in the first place.

Obviously, these are just thoughts and when I say "should" it is not actually me thinking I can order you or him about. It's just psychological tricks that tend to work to get past a little PTSD.



DarkSteven -> RE: Kink vs Abuse (8/28/2011 10:55:12 AM)

I agree with AksaAbsalon above about short sessions, to get you used to bottoming.  The idea is for you to get past the panic attacks.  Try five swats, then a cuddle session. Try having him crack jokes while he tops you.  Anything to get you to relax and feel loved and protected then.



EmeraldQueen -> RE: Kink vs Abuse (8/29/2011 9:23:16 AM)

Sorry its taken me so long to respond, I was evacuated in the hurricane and lost power...and alot of stuff.


Thank you all so much for the advice, its been helping.

Dorn is a switch, and though this profile lists me as Domme...I question myself regardless. I have a second profile on here that Im positive I'll be deleting, and keep this one as my main. I dont see myself as a straight up Dominant anymore, mostly due to my own self pride beind shaken so badly from past expreiences.

I am not a confident woman. I could tell you that from the start. But Dorn takes his time, and is easing into the role of Dom and the main supporter when I need him most.

We do not cane/flog/paddle for punishment. Nor do we do TPE or 24/7 PE. We are not full time life stylers. That was the life I lived BEFORE him. Where I was forced into a role, forced to leave my family and made to think they hated me. I was stuck in a submissive lifestyle and it was a 24/7 ordeal of HELL. Even thinking about it now makes my chest tighten up.

I am not a fan of corpral punishment, and the idea of punishing one you love is enough to give me goosebumps. When my ex wanted things done, and I didnt move fast enough, I paid for it dearly. The idea of taking my hand and punishing Dorn is something I could never imagine doing. And I've made it clear that if he ever thought to 'punish' me for being late to something, not doing something he wanted, etc, we were THOUGH.

He gladly agreed. It could have also been that he'd just recently met my father and mother. My father is a 6'6 German Marine Lt, Retired...but still scary. And my mother is old school Sicillian. Needless to say, he understood when my dad gave him the 'what are your intentions for our daughter' chat.

Regardless...your words are all wonderful, and Im slowly easing into a position that several months ago, would have terrified me. I'm still scared of public dungeons, and I've warned him that the idea of public play parties is enough to turn me into a sobbing, hysterical mess...he's done fairly well and isnt scared off yet.

He is a very willing, patient man and I can only thank the powers that be for letting him come into my life to help me get over my demons.

I still have a long way to go, and this community has taught me quite alot. I'm still young, and I can only hope to soak up the good information that you wonderful people have given me! Thank you all so much!



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