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Police shut off cell phone service "for the safety... - 8/13/2011 7:57:42 AM

Fightdirecto

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BART cuts cell phone service to stop protest

quote:

A planned protest of Bay Area Rapid Transit (BART) fizzled Thursday after officials reportedly cut cell phone services at some stations.

BART spokesman Linton Johnson told a KTVU reporter, who had noticed the disruption, that the public relations department had suggested that phone service be shut down.

Another BART spokesman, Jim Allison, reportedly admitted that the tactic had been “part of a larger strategy.”...

“I haven’t been able to find another incident in which this has happened,” criminologist Casey Jordan told CNN’s Suzanne Malveaux Friday. “I think perhaps it is unprecedented, and yet that’s how these legal issues come to light and get debated. Whether it’s legal or not it hasn’t been tested in the courts. Public safety exceptions to or encroachments on our personal freedoms do happen.”

“A lot of people are wondering, what happened to freedom of speech, assembly without government interference that’s protected by the First Amendment?” Malveaux asked.

“They didn’t try to shut down the protest. They simply turned off the cell service so it couldn’t become viral,” Jordan explained. “It really is just a cost/benefit analysis of where your freedom of speech begins to threaten the public safety.”

The group No Justice, No BART had called for the protest following a string of killings by BART police.

Interesting police tactic: the same tactic used unsuccessfully by Egypt's Mubarack trying to stop the protests against his dictatorship.

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< Message edited by Fightdirecto -- 8/13/2011 7:58:27 AM >

_____________________________

"I swore never to be silent whenever and wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.””
- Ellie Wiesel

Post #: 1

RE: Police shut off cell phone service "for the sa... - 8/13/2011 8:20:27 AM

pahunkboy

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Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
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People could have a cheaper phone bill this way.

(in reply to Fightdirecto)

Post #: 2

RE: Police shut off cell phone service "for the sa... - 8/13/2011 9:13:11 AM

TheHeretic

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From: California, USA
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I saw this story in the news, and it raises an interesting subject. Freedom of speech doesn't include yelling "fire" in a crowded theater. I think we can expand that to saying it doesn't include creating a flash mob protest in the inherently dangerous environment of a subway platform, either.

Cutting communications is troubling. I'm almost inclined to the idealist answer that it would be better to let it happen, and then prosecute to the hilt on the original sender, and anybody who forwarded, when some poor innocent gets bounced down onto the tracks.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to Fightdirecto)

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RE: Police shut off cell phone service "for the sa... - 8/13/2011 9:14:07 AM

outhere69

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According to yesterday's Contra Costa Times (via sjmercury.com):

"BART on Friday released a statement explaining its actions after cellphone reception in four downtown San Francisco stations was interrupted Thursday in a move to disrupt a planned demonstration, a decision denounced by civil libertarians.

In the statement, BART officials said the transit agency cut cellphone service after learning protesters planned to use mobile devices to coordinate a demonstration over the July 3 police shooting of Charles Blair Hill on the Civic Center station platform. Hill, a transient, was shot after police say he threw a bottle at them and then approached a BART officer and displayed a weapon.

"A civil disturbance during commute times at busy downtown San Francisco stations could lead to platform overcrowding and unsafe conditions for BART customers, employees and demonstrators," BART said in a statement on its website. "BART temporarily interrupted (cellphone) service at select BART stations as one of many tactics to ensure the safety of everyone on the platform."

The statement also noted that it is illegal to demonstrate on the platform or aboard the trains.

BART said it has set aside areas for demonstrations, and that the agency manned its stations and trains with additional personnel in case of emergencies."

BTW, it just ain't protests that are illegal - they routinely bust musicians passing the hat on platforms or on the trains.

(in reply to pahunkboy)

Post #: 4

RE: Police shut off cell phone service "for the sa... - 8/13/2011 9:23:57 AM

Aylee

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Joined: 10/14/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

I saw this story in the news, and it raises an interesting subject. Freedom of speech doesn't include yelling "fire" in a crowded theater. I think we can expand that to saying it doesn't include creating a flash mob protest in the inherently dangerous environment of a subway platform, either.

Cutting communications is troubling. I'm almost inclined to the idealist answer that it would be better to let it happen, and then prosecute to the hilt on the original sender, and anybody who forwarded, when some poor innocent gets bounced down onto the tracks.

Wouldn't creating a flash mob protest already fall under the crimes of "incitement to riot" and "disturbing the peace"?

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 5

RE: Police shut off cell phone service "for the sa... - 8/13/2011 9:29:39 AM

littlewonder

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it seems it was done to keep people safe on the platform. Those platforms can only take so much weight before they cause someone to be hurt or worse. In that case I don't have a problem with it.

Philly just implemented a curfew for those under 16 due to flash mobs that are causing havoc and chaos in the streets.

This is where it may be time that police start to regulate technology because of such problems.

_____________________________

Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

(in reply to outhere69)

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RE: Police shut off cell phone service "for the sa... - 8/13/2011 9:32:44 AM

pahunkboy

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I dont think those jammers have a big radius that they effect.

(in reply to littlewonder)

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RE: Police shut off cell phone service "for the sa... - 8/13/2011 9:33:34 AM

TheHeretic

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Yes, Aylee, along with conspiracy as well, and murder, if someone should get killed.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to Aylee)

Post #: 8

RE: Police shut off cell phone service "for the sa... - 8/13/2011 9:50:02 AM

HannahLynHeather

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welcome to tyranny 101.
lesson #1: shut the fuckers up.

sorry, there is no acceptable excuse, it is an infringement of your own constitution, and more so it is an example of what is wrong with any form of government, it puts its own interests above those of the individual.

_____________________________

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fuck a duck ~w. disney

My Twitter: http://twitter.com/HannahFuck

i hope you enjoyed the post, and as always my friends....have a nice day

(in reply to Fightdirecto)

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RE: Police shut off cell phone service "for the sa... - 8/13/2011 10:08:15 AM

Real0ne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

I saw this story in the news, and it raises an interesting subject. Freedom of speech doesn't include yelling "fire" in a crowded theater. I think we can expand that to saying it doesn't include creating a flash mob protest in the inherently dangerous environment of a subway platform, either.

Cutting communications is troubling. I'm almost inclined to the idealist answer that it would be better to let it happen, and then prosecute to the hilt on the original sender, and anybody who forwarded, when some poor innocent gets bounced down onto the tracks.

if you read the fine print freedom of speech only applies to those in congress!

You are not party to the constitution and the supreme court has ruled that the 10 amendments do not apply to you.

Only states have LIFE! LIBERTY! and best of all POSTERITY!

I posted the spies case several times apparently no one believes the supreme court rulings either.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 10

RE: Police shut off cell phone service "for the sa... - 8/13/2011 10:10:59 AM

Real0ne

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Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

welcome to tyranny 101.
lesson #1: shut the fuckers up.

sorry, there is no acceptable excuse, it is an infringement of your own constitution, and more so it is an example of what is wrong with any form of government, it puts its own interests above those of the individual.

you got it and they are moving fast and furious to enforce it. 911 was the pivotal point with the patriot act.

This stuff was in the works for a long time, (pre 1860) now its culmination.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to HannahLynHeather)

Post #: 11

RE: Police shut off cell phone service "for the sa... - 8/13/2011 10:30:10 AM

willbeurdaddy

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Joined: 4/8/2006
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This is a tough one. BART is a tri-county agency, not state or federal, and they have an obligation to provide safe ridership. The problem is that if someone were handing out flyers to meet at a BART station for a protest, you couldnt stop them. But BART could stop them from overcrowding a platform, and could probably stop them from assembling on BART property if it interfered with a passengers ability to access the platform.

I think ultimately though, providing cell phone repeaters at the stations is not legally required, its a convenience. Shutting those down should be fine. Any sort of jamming devices would not be (imo) but I havent read where they actually jammed anything.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to HannahLynHeather)

Post #: 12

RE: Police shut off cell phone service "for the sa... - 8/13/2011 10:35:30 AM

HannahLynHeather

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Joined: 4/4/2011
From: where it's at
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quote:

This stuff was in the works for a long time, (pre 1860) now its culmination.

fuck off, nothing is in the works, it's not some huge fucking conspiracy, it's inherent in the nature of government, any government. they aren't following any plan, they are flailing about wildly trying to maintain control, and like every government since the dawn of time their first reaction is to repress. it is what they do because it is their only power, that of coercion - do what we say or else we'll fuck you over.

tyranny is implicit in any form of government. yours in the u.s. is one of the more resistant forms because of its power limitations and built in inefficiencies, but it still moves constantly in that direction, it has no fucking choice. it can no more avoid sliding into greater repression and curtailment of your rights than you can sprout wings and fly.

_____________________________

clique? i don't need no stinking clique!

fuck a duck ~w. disney

My Twitter: http://twitter.com/HannahFuck

i hope you enjoyed the post, and as always my friends....have a nice day

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 13

RE: Police shut off cell phone service "for the sa... - 8/13/2011 1:27:43 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

welcome to tyranny 101.
lesson #1: shut the fuckers up.

sorry, there is no acceptable excuse, it is an infringement of your own constitution, and more so it is an example of what is wrong with any form of government, it puts its own interests above those of the individual.

From within your anarchist's pov, Hannah, why exactly are the tyrannical fuckers from BART required to provide you with an instant communications relay, anyway? They pay the electric bill, don't they?

Just because cell phones exist as a means of communication, and can even work underground, is having constant access to the network somehow an inalienable right?

And I'm still not comfortable with the idea. It may have been an excellent tactic to defuse a disruptive and possibly dangerous situation, but cutting off people's ability to communicate has an authoritarian scent about it that I just don't like.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to HannahLynHeather)

Post #: 14

RE: Police shut off cell phone service "for the sa... - 8/13/2011 1:31:24 PM

lockedaway

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Joined: 3/15/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

welcome to tyranny 101.
lesson #1: shut the fuckers up.

sorry, there is no acceptable excuse, it is an infringement of your own constitution, and more so it is an example of what is wrong with any form of government, it puts its own interests above those of the individual.

From within your anarchist's pov, Hannah, why exactly are the tyrannical fuckers from BART required to provide you with an instant communications relay, anyway? They pay the electric bill, don't they?

Just because cell phones exist as a means of communication, and can even work underground, is having constant access to the network somehow an inalienable right?

And I'm still not comfortable with the idea. It may have been an excellent tactic to defuse a disruptive and possibly dangerous situation, but cutting off people's ability to communicate has an authoritarian scent about it that I just don't like.

With the advent of every new technology comes a concomitant reduction in your civil rights...your zone of privacy. Yes...here comes tyranny. But tyranny has alway been stomping around. It is just more and more frequent that tyranny comes looking like a guy from "Geek Squad" rather than a guy in jack boots.

< Message edited by lockedaway -- 8/13/2011 1:34:36 PM >

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 15

RE: Police shut off cell phone service "for the sa... - 8/13/2011 2:03:41 PM

HannahLynHeather

Posts: 2950
Joined: 4/4/2011
From: where it's at
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quote:

From within your anarchist's pov, Hannah, why exactly are the tyrannical fuckers from BART required to provide you with an instant communications relay, anyway? They pay the electric bill, don't they?

Just because cell phones exist as a means of communication, and can even work underground, is having constant access to the network somehow an inalienable right?

to the best of my knowledge bart is publicly funded <it was built with public funds> and run under the auspices of the local governments, it is therefore an arm of the government, and therefore has no rights, only powers.
now if they provided cellular service, while it isn't your inalienable right to cell phone access, it is your right to have your servants continue to provide the services they normally provide, to cut them to prevent the free exercise of your right to speak freely and to assemble is unconscionable. they did it solely to protect themselves, the public safety argument is bullshit, and we all know it.

this is an example of a government agency, one which has a police force with the "authority" to fucking kill people on the spot i might add, silencing it's opponents. as i said, "lesson #1: shut the fuckers up". stifling communication between opponents is the first and most important step in any program of government oppression. this is never acceptable, not in damascus, and not in san fran. the issues are different, but the principle is the fucking same.

_____________________________

clique? i don't need no stinking clique!

fuck a duck ~w. disney

My Twitter: http://twitter.com/HannahFuck

i hope you enjoyed the post, and as always my friends....have a nice day

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 16

RE: Police shut off cell phone service "for the sa... - 8/13/2011 2:05:18 PM

HannahLynHeather

Posts: 2950
Joined: 4/4/2011
From: where it's at
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quote:

It is just more and more frequent that tyranny comes looking like a guy from "Geek Squad" rather than a guy in jack boots

i fucking love this!!!
heil louis!!

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

clique? i don't need no stinking clique!

fuck a duck ~w. disney

My Twitter: http://twitter.com/HannahFuck

i hope you enjoyed the post, and as always my friends....have a nice day

(in reply to lockedaway)

Post #: 17

RE: Police shut off cell phone service "for the sa... - 8/13/2011 2:23:03 PM

Fightdirecto

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Hypothetical:

BART, in order to stop a potential anti-BART demonstration, kills all cell phone service within 1 mile of a BART train station.

Mr. John Doe and his wife, Jane, are walking along the public sidewalk next to the BART train station. Jane, an elderly lady, has a heart attack and collapses to the sidewalk. John takes out his cellphone to call 911 - but his cellphone won't work because BART, in order to stop a potential anti-BART demonstration, has killed all cell phone service within 1 mile of the BART train station. There are no pay phones in the area. Jane dies due to the inability of her husband to contact paramedics in time to save her life.

What civil or criminal liability would BART have in Jane Doe's death?

_____________________________

"I swore never to be silent whenever and wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.””
- Ellie Wiesel

(in reply to HannahLynHeather)

Post #: 18

RE: Police shut off cell phone service "for the sa... - 8/13/2011 3:13:09 PM

willbeurdaddy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

Hypothetical:

BART, in order to stop a potential anti-BART demonstration, kills all cell phone service within 1 mile of a BART train station.

Mr. John Doe and his wife, Jane, are walking along the public sidewalk next to the BART train station. Jane, an elderly lady, has a heart attack and collapses to the sidewalk. John takes out his cellphone to call 911 - but his cellphone won't work because BART, in order to stop a potential anti-BART demonstration, has killed all cell phone service within 1 mile of the BART train station. There are no pay phones in the area. Jane dies due to the inability of her husband to contact paramedics in time to save her life.

What civil or criminal liability would BART have in Jane Doe's death?

Plenty, but its an asinine hypothetical since they cant and wouldnt cut off cell service in that wide an area.

Reality is better than that broad a hypothetical. They have provided an expectation of cell service within a station, something they have had no legal obligation to provide in the first place. They did actually cut that service. So what liability do they have in the hypothetical heart attack situation...I say none.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to Fightdirecto)

Post #: 19

RE: Police shut off cell phone service "for the sa... - 8/13/2011 5:09:12 PM

Aylee

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Joined: 10/14/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

Hypothetical:

BART, in order to stop a potential anti-BART demonstration, kills all cell phone service within 1 mile of a BART train station.

Mr. John Doe and his wife, Jane, are walking along the public sidewalk next to the BART train station. Jane, an elderly lady, has a heart attack and collapses to the sidewalk. John takes out his cellphone to call 911 - but his cellphone won't work because BART, in order to stop a potential anti-BART demonstration, has killed all cell phone service within 1 mile of the BART train station. There are no pay phones in the area. Jane dies due to the inability of her husband to contact paramedics in time to save her life.

What civil or criminal liability would BART have in Jane Doe's death?

What in the hell did people do before cell phones when a person had a heart-attack in public?

These two are elderly, after all, I am sure that John can figure SOMETHING out.

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to Fightdirecto)

Post #: 20

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