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RE: Here we go again...Con-didate Compares Public Schoo... - 8/1/2011 9:38:56 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Despite your best efforts, O59, there might be a bit of decent conversation here.  I'm throwing you on block for a bit, to enjoy it.

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Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Here we go again...Con-didate Compares Public Schoo... - 8/1/2011 9:44:20 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Servant, Willbe ---

Just so we're clear, are you saying that U.S. public schools are equivalent to Nazi indoctrination programs?

quote:

willbeurdaddy
Some of the curriculum absolutely is.



Is this the nuttiest post ever? Can some one please organise a poll on this?

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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Here we go again...Con-didate Compares Public Schoo... - 8/1/2011 9:45:52 PM   
imperatrixx


Posts: 903
Joined: 3/29/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Looks great on paper, doesn't it Impera?  Of course, given the polarized state of the populace, and the financial nightmares many districts are dealing with, this just seems like a wonderful way to stir up another giant distraction.


"giant distraction" is a long way from Nazism.

Sorry but it gets really old hearing these buzzwords...everything is either a Nazi, a communist, or a terrorist. I can't take either side seriously when they turn up the rhetoric.

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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Here we go again...Con-didate Compares Public Schoo... - 8/1/2011 9:47:36 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KeriB


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
Environmental studies, womens studies, black studies, the role of _____ in society where the blank changed every semester. Its been a while since my youngest graduated and the books are long gone (yeah, we even had to buy the books for them)



I can see how those could be consider liberal classes. However, I would hope that in those classes the students are learning about the history of the topic as well as how to be able to look at the world from multiple view points. Students should be able to have the resources to look at all the information and form their own opinion, no matter what that opinion is.

Did they have any religion/seminar type classes there or was all of it geared toward looking at the roll of things/people in society?


There was a comparative religion course. There is plenty of time for those resources in college. When they are graduating unable to write, spell and do basic math there is no time for the gut courses.

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to the barking of the dogfox,
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Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Here we go again...Con-didate Compares Public Schoo... - 8/1/2011 9:50:11 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KeriB


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Looks great on paper, doesn't it Impera?  Of course, given the polarized state of the populace, and the financial nightmares many districts are dealing with, this just seems like a wonderful way to stir up another giant distraction.



In the real world it does actually work the way the standards say and the common core is being implemented in most states. Teachers have to teach to the curriculum standards that are set by each state, if the teacher doesn't they get fired.


And if they dont erase wrong answers and correct them on standardized tests they dont get bonuses. But the kids come first. Sure.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Here we go again...Con-didate Compares Public Schoo... - 8/1/2011 10:02:35 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		The thing to keep in mind, Keri, is that California is the place that simultaneously voted to send Barack Obama to the White House, and to put a ban on gay marriage in the State Constitution (against my wishes on both, but it is what it is).  Housing values have collapsed, meaning the take from property taxes has collapsed right along with them.  Instead of focusing on those budgetary problems, or the dropout rate, or whether everybody in the room can read, the state government has enacted legislation that seems designed to get the mouth-frothing hordes into the streets and schoolboard meetings.



_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to KeriB)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Here we go again...Con-didate Compares Public Schoo... - 8/1/2011 10:05:16 PM   
KeriB


Posts: 315
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

There was a comparative religion course. There is plenty of time for those resources in college. When they are graduating unable to write, spell and do basic math there is no time for the gut courses.


I agree that having them be able to read, write, and do math should be a priority, but it is not an easy thing to accomplish. It takes more than just teachers to do this. It takes parents and community too.



quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

And if they dont erase wrong answers and correct them on standardized tests they dont get bonuses. But the kids come first. Sure.



The most recent incident in Georgia as I understand it wasn't for bonuses. The way the system is setup with standardized tests to gauge student achieve, means you're going to have some teachers and administrators that will do this. The tests themselves really don't gauge how good a student or teacher is, they gauge how well someone can take a test.




_____________________________

I fear neither death nor pain. A cage. To stay behind bars until use and old age accept them and all chance of valor has gone beyond recall or desire. ~ Eowyn

I've seen honest faces, they usually come attached to liars.

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Here we go again...Con-didate Compares Public Schoo... - 8/1/2011 10:06:59 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		And the whole hostage taking terrorist vocabulary got old quick too, Impera.  Who the fuck is this person calling Nazi?  A senator?  US Representative?  Spokeshole for POTUS?  Or a nobody from nowhere, dug up by an activist?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to imperatrixx)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Here we go again...Con-didate Compares Public Schoo... - 8/1/2011 10:10:28 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Servant, Willbe ---

Just so we're clear, are you saying that U.S. public schools are equivalent to Nazi indoctrination programs?


Some of the curriculum absolutely is.



My guess is that wilbur is angry because he got fat eating those 'healthy" school meals.

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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Here we go again...Con-didate Compares Public Schoo... - 8/1/2011 10:11:11 PM   
KeriB


Posts: 315
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

The thing to keep in mind, Keri, is that California is the place that simultaneously voted to send Barack Obama to the White House, and to put a ban on gay marriage in the State Constitution (against my wishes on both, but it is what it is).  Housing values have collapsed, meaning the take from property taxes has collapsed right along with them.  Instead of focusing on those budgetary problems, or the dropout rate, or whether everybody in the room can read, the state government has enacted legislation that seems designed to get the mouth-frothing hordes into the streets and schoolboard meetings.




I lived in California for quite awhile so I understand the weird mixture of politics. Here's the thing though when it comes to the education system California is no different from most other states. The legislature has now idea how to run a school, design curriculum, or assess student achievement. They also have no clue as to what teachers really have to deal with on day to day basis in the classroom or what even makes a good teacher. As with most politics it's about getting re-elected instead of what is good for the students.


< Message edited by KeriB -- 8/1/2011 10:12:51 PM >

_____________________________

I fear neither death nor pain. A cage. To stay behind bars until use and old age accept them and all chance of valor has gone beyond recall or desire. ~ Eowyn

I've seen honest faces, they usually come attached to liars.

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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Here we go again...Con-didate Compares Public Schoo... - 8/1/2011 10:13:03 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KeriB

quote:

There was a comparative religion course. There is plenty of time for those resources in college. When they are graduating unable to write, spell and do basic math there is no time for the gut courses.


I agree that having them be able to read, write, and do math should be a priority, but it is not an easy thing to accomplish. It takes more than just teachers to do this. It takes parents and community too.

parents yes, community not so much



quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

And if they dont erase wrong answers and correct them on standardized tests they dont get bonuses. But the kids come first. Sure.



The most recent incident in Georgia as I understand it wasn't for bonuses. The way the system is setup with standardized tests to gauge student achieve, means you're going to have some teachers and administrators that will do this. The tests themselves really don't gauge how good a student or teacher is, they gauge how well someone can take a test.





Pennsylvania is the latest (35 school districts), and whether its for bonuses or pay increases its irrelevant, its all to get more money to spend. And there is always an element of test taking ability in any standardized test, but they are highly correlated with success at the next higher grade/level. If teachers teach the test instead of the subject matter they arent doing their jobs, so saying that is the end result of having standardized testing is just condemning them, not the tests.

< Message edited by willbeurdaddy -- 8/1/2011 10:15:27 PM >

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Here we go again...Con-didate Compares Public Schoo... - 8/1/2011 10:16:49 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline 		Wow. I always thought it was Texas that determined to a great extent what material is placed in text books?

Those fucking liberal piece of shit Texans!

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RE: Here we go again...Con-didate Compares Public Schoo... - 8/2/2011 5:31:05 AM   
kat321


Posts: 66
Joined: 2/4/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


Pennsylvania is the latest (35 school districts), and whether its for bonuses or pay increases its irrelevant, its all to get more money to spend. And there is always an element of test taking ability in any standardized test, but they are highly correlated with success at the next higher grade/level. If teachers teach the test instead of the subject matter they arent doing their jobs, so saying that is the end result of having standardized testing is just condemning them, not the tests.


Actually, no.  Standardized tests have a very limited range of what they can predict in terms of student achievement.  Take a look at the College Board website.  An SAT or ACT, when taken with a student's GPA and other data can only generally predict 'success' in the first year of college, with 'success' being defined as a student earning a D average.  Even the AP and IB tests only extend as far a content area knowledge- not success in the next level of schooling.  K-12 tests like the Terra Nova or ITBS (two of the big K-12 tests) also only can lay claim to limited student predictors- and they do not foretell how well a student will do in the next grade.  For instance, the Terra Nova uses IRT, which statistically aligns student responses with ability traits, the strength of student ability being dependent upon the strength of how the question is written.  The score can answer how well a student answers a question that the testing company says aligns with state standards, but it cannot and is not meant to predict student achievement or any form of success at the next grade level.  Since most psychometricians are taught the same evaluation theories, most tests are built on similar models. Results are even more diluted now as states develop their own tests.  Since limited resources are placed on the test construction process, the test themselves are weakened measured and the strength of their supposed results are debatable.






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RE: Here we go again...Con-didate Compares Public Schoo... - 8/2/2011 5:37:03 AM   
kat321


Posts: 66
Joined: 2/4/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

Wow. I always thought it was Texas that determined to a great extent what material is placed in text books?

Those fucking liberal piece of shit Texans!


Generally speaking, in the past they had.  Since Texas and California have had the largest number of students in schools, publishers tended to bend to lobbies from each of those states to get on their adoption lists.  (The majority of states create lists of texts in each subject area that schools can select from... and if the books are on the list, schools get reimbursed for part of the purchase).  This has led to an interesting publishing trend as TX and CA have very different textbook lobbies.  However, as computer technology has changed publishing, the impact of these two states has been lessened.  Publishers have moved to more online resources available with text purchases that cover each state's particular (peculiar?) needs.  This way, the text itself becomes more generic and useable in multiple states and the online resources can teach to each state school board's particular biases.

The problem still exists, but is more and more limited in scope each year.

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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Here we go again...Con-didate Compares Public Schoo... - 8/2/2011 5:54:17 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Don't forget Califirnia's new requirement that we have a gay history component in the curricula. 

I'm sure it will do immense harm to high school students to read a poem by Sappho.

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Here we go again...Con-didate Compares Public Schoo... - 8/2/2011 5:57:48 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
When they are graduating unable to write, spell and do basic math

Oh the irony.

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Here we go again...Con-didate Compares Public Schoo... - 8/2/2011 7:15:25 AM   
Fightdirecto


Posts: 1101
Joined: 8/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse
The way our schools indoctrinate little kids with liberal pap, she might be right.

Come on you righties of today. Don't hold back, tell us all about how they are feeding kids with liberal pap. I see so many charges from the righties with no examples.

Time to actually explain ourselves.


An example of "liberal pap" that some Right-wingers cite (only in private amongst themselves, of course, until Michelle Bachman came along):

Up until the mid-1960's many of the history and social studies textbooks in the public schools taught that slavery really was a good thing because black slaves in the United States were better off than free blacks living in Africa at the same time period.

Since that time, liberals have changed that and now textbooks teach the "liberal pap" that slavery is bad, both for the slaves and for the slaveholders.

Putting an Antebellum Myth to Rest

But, as was said by the Republicans during the Cheney/Bush Administration: "Facts have a liberal bias".


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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Here we go again...Con-didate Compares Public Schoo... - 8/2/2011 7:59:26 AM   
flcouple2009


Posts: 2784
Joined: 1/8/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
Who the fuck is this person calling Nazi?  A senator?  US Representative?  Spokeshole for POTUS?  Or a nobody from nowhere, dug up by an activist?


How about

 " Republican candidate for the Aug. 9 recall election of Democratic state Sen. Jim Holperin".

Not exactly NOBODY from NOWHERE dug up by some ACTIVIST is it?


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RE: Here we go again...Con-didate Compares Public Schoo... - 8/2/2011 12:37:14 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

Up until the mid-1960's many of the history and social studies textbooks in the public schools taught that slavery really was a good thing because black slaves in the United States were better off than free blacks living in Africa at the same time period.

Since that time, liberals have changed that and now textbooks teach the "liberal pap" that slavery is bad, both for the slaves and for the slaveholders.

Putting an Antebellum Myth to Rest


What your claim above has to do with either "facts" or reality is pretty difficult to surmise.  From your own link ...

it represents a resurfacing of a pro-slavery view of “family values” that was prevalent in the decades before the Civil War.

You are at least 100 years wrong, it seems.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

But, as was said by the Republicans during the Cheney/Bush Administration: "Facts have a liberal bias".

No, a more correct aphorism - based on your own post - would seem to be "Liberals make up facts to support their beliefs.".

Firm


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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Here we go again...Con-didate Compares Public Schoo... - 8/2/2011 12:43:46 PM   
lockedaway


Posts: 1720
Joined: 3/15/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Really? "liberal pap" (in your own words) bears some sort of equivalency to Nazism?


What a stupid response.  Liberalism has infected our public school system and any parent that does not sit down and read their child's history book is a fool. 

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Profile   Post #: 60
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