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RE: Iranian media: Iran downs US 'spy drone' - 7/21/2011 9:17:11 AM

Aneirin

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And that could be a problem, as why use such a lone manufacturer machine which might just happen to be American, as one falling out of the sky, causes fingers to be pointed automatically. Surely an unmarked common use machine would be more discreet ?

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RE: Iranian media: Iran downs US 'spy drone' - 7/21/2011 7:31:48 PM

rawtape

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b
The whole point of the drone is to be discreet but, as the old saying goes, shit happens. Nations spy on each other and do so to the best of their ability. Drones are just an advantage that the U.S. has that most other nations do not, I don't see why our spying on other nations (some of which need to be watched!) makes us any different from other nations spying on each other.

Marc, while spying is quite common, having non-civilian aircraft enter one's airspace without permission is an invasion of sovereignty. Think of how most Americans would react if say, an Iranian drone were to invade the US airspace. You'd have at least a sizable fraction asking for them to be bombed into the Stone Ages. Why is it so difficult to imagine that Iranians too might take umbrage at something similar?

Now, the US already has a bad reputation for effectively invading Pakistani sovereignty with drone attacks against suspected insurgents. While there is some data to suggest that there was tacit approval for this from the higher echelons of the Pakistani army, a rather common perception among non-Americans is that the US does not feel the need to adhere to international norms. This story of the Iranians shooting down an American drone over their territory simply reinforces that notion.

You can ask why this is relevant. I've discussed previously in another thread why having Iran as an ally makes more sense from the perspective of realpolitik. And, given the state of the economy and the waning influence of the US (see the National Intelligence Council's Global Trends 2025 report), it's probably not a good idea to continue rubbing other nations the wrong way.

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RE: Iranian media: Iran downs US 'spy drone' - 7/26/2011 1:45:04 PM

Marc2b

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quote:

Marc, while spying is quite common, having non-civilian aircraft enter one's airspace without permission is an invasion of sovereignty. Think of how most Americans would react if say, an Iranian drone were to invade the US airspace. You'd have at least a sizable fraction asking for them to be bombed into the Stone Ages. Why is it so difficult to imagine that Iranians too might take umbrage at something similar?

I have no difficulty imagining why the Iranians would take umbrage, that’s human nature. It is also human nature for people to take a “we’re the good guys, they’re the bad guys” double standard in such things. I fail to see why this surprises anybody.

quote:

Now, the US already has a bad reputation for effectively invading Pakistani sovereignty with drone attacks against suspected insurgents. While there is some data to suggest that there was tacit approval for this from the higher echelons of the Pakistani army, a rather common perception among non-Americans is that the US does not feel the need to adhere to international norms. This story of the Iranians shooting down an American drone over their territory simply reinforces that notion.

Of course we don’t feel a need to adhere to international norms. Neither does anyone else. Treaties, conventions, etc, are usually nothing more than something to pay lip service to.

quote:

You can ask why this is relevant. I've discussed previously in another thread why having Iran as an ally makes more sense from the perspective of realpolitik. And, given the state of the economy and the waning influence of the US (see the National Intelligence Council's Global Trends 2025 report), it's probably not a good idea to continue rubbing other nations the wrong way.

You’ll get no argument from me that Iran would make a great ally but it is not going to happen until they have something other than a theocracy for a government.

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RE: Iranian media: Iran downs US 'spy drone' - 7/26/2011 1:49:31 PM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b
You’ll get no argument from me that Iran would make a great ally but it is not going to happen until they have something other than a theocracy for a government.

No argument with the rest, but I'm not sure about this one: the Shah was more or less running a theocracy after the CIA deposed Mossadeq and put him back in power, even if he didn't have a Quran stuffed quite as far up his arse as either of the Ayatollahs they've had since, and you guys had no problem dealing with him...

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RE: Iranian media: Iran downs US 'spy drone' - 7/26/2011 2:08:13 PM

Marc2b

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quote:

No argument with the rest, but I'm not sure about this one: the Shah was more or less running a theocracy after the CIA deposed Mossadeq and put him back in power, even if he didn't have a Quran stuffed quite as far up his arse as either of the Ayatollahs they've had since, and you guys had no problem dealing with him...

Fine, I'll amend that to Western hating theocracy... but I don't think any theocracy makes for a worthwhile ally.

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RE: Iranian media: Iran downs US 'spy drone' - 7/26/2011 2:09:44 PM

Moonhead

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Fair enough. I'll go along with that.

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RE: Iranian media: Iran downs US 'spy drone' - 7/26/2011 2:21:24 PM

Real0ne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rawtape

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

From the article:
quote:

Earlier this month, Iranian military officials showed Russian experts several U.S. drones they said were shot down in recent years.

Iran is sharing any technical know how they can glean from the wrecks with Russia. They have had a pretty cosy relationship since the fall of the USSR.

Quite true. Russia also sold Iran a bunch of Sunburn SS-N-22 anti-ship missiles (quite relevant if you think of the Strait of Hormuz and what closing it say, by sinking a ship would do to the US and world economy). Remember also that Iran has observer status in the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (think a Russia-China NATO).

clinton sold china our nuke plans and junior 1 upp'd him by simply putting it on the internet for every one for free!

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RE: Iranian media: Iran downs US 'spy drone' - 7/26/2011 2:24:46 PM

Real0ne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rawtape
Marc, while spying is quite common, having non-civilian aircraft enter one's airspace without permission is an invasion of sovereignty.

they want to provoke a confrontation.

they have permission from the idiot americans who are not marching daily in front of washington.

as if that would really do any fucking good in this quasi-dictatorial-monarchial-deMOBcracy

they dont give a flying fuck for our rights much less anyone elses.

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 7/26/2011 2:25:37 PM >

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RE: Iranian media: Iran downs US 'spy drone' - 7/26/2011 2:29:10 PM

mnottertail

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
clinton sold china our nuke plans . . .

No. Go over in the corner by your dish and lay down. People are talking here.

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RE: Iranian media: Iran downs US 'spy drone' - 7/26/2011 2:35:27 PM

hlen5

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

That's odd. I thought we used satellites for spying, not drones.

NPR featured an author that wrote about spy drones and how they were used to get Bin Laden. I forget the name of the book.

He suggested some day drones disguised as birds will be in use. I'm going to go look for the book title now.

ETA: Not positive of the book title, but this is interesting.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2011/02/17/133838899/tiny-hummingbird-may-someday-fly-spy-missions-for-the-military

< Message edited by hlen5 -- 7/26/2011 2:57:08 PM >

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